Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 37

Thread: Ducking greys

  
  1. #1
    Senior Member Bama71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    NE AL
    Posts
    518
    Post Thanks / Like

    Ducking greys

    I have a line of hatch greys that been in the family a while. I've seen a few try and duck under the other bird and get caught in back. An older man told me a lot of grey families do this. That's why he wont own one. Some of mine do some dont. But is it because it needs freshened up or do most grey families do this. And are there any causes for them to do this. Is it traits of the family even though some do and others dont. Is it all grey birds
    Or is it learned and how can we correct it. They dont get sparred much so I know that's not it. Even in keep mine only get sparred 3 times a week and other than that every now and then and that's to see which ones will do what.
    Last edited by Bama71; May 29th, 2019 at 02:38 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Sandy Island
    Posts
    1,496
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Hatch are known ground fighters, but not sure about greys. Their is a theory, that there is not any grey blood that doesn't not have hatch in it and there is not any hatch that does not have grey in it. Now if that is true, who knows.
    Last edited by bazsdmeg2u; May 29th, 2019 at 03:08 AM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Birdderfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    G.F s.carolina
    Posts
    1,125
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Lots of grey families have had hatch infused to and bottom and lot of the dead game old time hatches will duck or reach for beak hold if you have a dark legged family of greys I wouldn't cross to hatches cause more times than not they all ready have hatch in them try cross with speed fowl

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    texoma
    Posts
    379
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    I have some stag pens that had roost pole bout 10" off the ground, noticed stags in those pens ducking under the pole as opposed to going over. Thought to myself that is not something I want them to learn. Make a long story short all those stags ducked the first time they were sparred, after getting driven to the ground by the opposing bird a few times most stopped. I know it can be learned so it is something to look for.

  5. #5
    Banned grey/dom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Tigbakayan
    Posts
    7,572
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    As for me. Ducking birds are fat birds. And I dnt believe only greys. All chikens duck one way or the other to evade or see something that fly highs. Try crossing them to side stepping style. Maybe madigin claret perhaps. The claret love the
    ducking opponent. They always make them to be their drum.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    2,515
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    My yard is 95 percent grey and mine don't do it. No trait is bound by the color of their feathers.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2,244
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Ive seen some Greys duck so bad that you would think they were picking up feed of the ground. Literally ever time the other bird jumped off the ground they would duck right down. NOT ALL GREYS DO THIS ! But the roosters Ive seen do it the most often just so happen to be Grey fowl . No way I know of to break them from the habit . Its like any other fighter human too. A trainer can tell them what to and not to do but when pressed or hurt instinct kicks in . No matter if its in their best interest or not they think it is and will get themselves in trouble. If you feel your fowl is otherwise worth it then the only thing I could recommend with any faith would be cull ruthlessly . Never breed from a bird that ducks no matter how good period ! Some say cross them to something .Well that's hit and miss. You might get lucky and get some that don't duck and some that do. Youll still have to cull hard. The thing with crossing looks good on paper but the reality of it is that as many bad traits have the chance to be passed on as the good ones do. So again if I liked them good enough to keep them I would set a careful eye from here on out exactly which ones I let into the brood pen. It wont happen over night and there is a chance that it may never fully happen. Just means youll have to try to raise higher numbers and cull more like A WHOLE LOT OF THE BIG BOYS DO to get the best ones ! In time the whole line will be better for it . Either that or find some fowl that you already think are better and go with them. Youll still have to work just as hard to maintain them as you would to build these up. You just wouldn't have as many years tied up in doing so. If you want to keep them let your eyes be your best tool and show no favoritism . Even if you love the looks of one , how he is built how he acts , if he gets stung and start ducking win or not cut him from the team.

  8. #8
    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Lone Star State
    Posts
    1,866
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Good comments. My input would be that based on what Ive seen, I dont concur with that. The Grey lines Ive seen are always fast and for the most part are aggressive frontal attackers. Now I dont know if some of these were crossed or not though. I can say that HatchxGrey has been one of the most winning lines of fowl. Seen plenty of gaff type do very well. Id lean to refresh over it being a standard trait for Grey blood. We all know they can decline more and more as the seasons go by especially if the breeding is tight.
    Best wishes
    SF
    Last edited by KevinG; May 29th, 2019 at 09:37 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2,244
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
    Good comments. My input would be that based on what Ive seen, I dont concur with that. The Grey lines Ive seen are always fast and for the most part are aggressive frontal attackers. Now I dont know if some of these were crossed or not though. I can say that HatchxGrey has been one of the most winning lines of fowl. Seen plenty of gaff type do very well. Id lean to refresh over it being a standard trait for Grey blood. We all know they can decline more and more as the seasons go by especially if the breeding is tight.
    Best wishes
    SF
    I would agree with that . But a lot of the Greys that come out smoking wont duck until they got hurt a little .That's when it shows up like a bad dream lol.
    Again Ill say not all Grey do this . It just so happens that the majority of duckers Ive seen personally just happen to have been Grey fowl. One thing that I will says is when people see a Grey bird just like a black bird they subconsciously connect them with all Grey or all Black fowl. To say I wouldn't own a Grey line or a Black line based off what a few lines have done is just absolute nonsense. Same as how a lot of racial people act toward other races just because of what a couple individuals do. Its stupid ! I will stand by the info I provided on how to solve the problem but Im open to any suggestions if someone knows a way other than what I stated to get them not to duck once they have started to. Even if possible I can only assume that once they got hurt a little they would automatically start ducking again even if it were possible to break them from it. I own Grey fowl myself , they don't duck .
    If a man starts with enough fowl and breeds them apart for years and years he has somewhere to turn if one line or both lines start getting tight . Sometimes as luck goes you can lose one line or the other for some reason and you have to find outside blood .Just no way around it in some cases but the offspring as you know will always carry the good and the bad of a family.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Bama71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    NE AL
    Posts
    518
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Quote Originally Posted by Skincarver View Post
    I would agree with that . But a lot of the Greys that come out smoking wont duck until they got hurt a little .That's when it shows up like a bad dream lol.
    Again Ill say not all Grey do this . It just so happens that the majority of duckers Ive seen personally just happen to have been Grey fowl. One thing that I will says is when people see a Grey bird just like a black bird they subconsciously connect them with all Grey or all Black fowl. To say I wouldn't own a Grey line or a Black line based off what a few lines have done is just absolute nonsense. Same as how a lot of racial people act toward other races just because of what a couple individuals do. Its stupid ! I will stand by the info I provided on how to solve the problem but Im open to any suggestions if someone knows a way other than what I stated to get them not to duck once they have started to. Even if possible I can only assume that once they got hurt a little they would automatically start ducking again even if it were possible to break them from it. I own Grey fowl myself , they don't duck .
    If a man starts with enough fowl and breeds them apart for years and years he has somewhere to turn if one line or both lines start getting tight . Sometimes as luck goes you can lose one line or the other for some reason and you have to find outside blood .Just no way around it in some cases but the offspring as you know will always carry the good and the bad of a family.
    That one you got from me did he duck. I've done pretty good with them this year. I had not noticed it until that old man said something about it lol. I'm wondering if they don't need freshened up. This year I bred towards the side that doesn't duck. But I agree with you I may never get it totally out. You've seen them they are good cutters very aggressive and are game to the core. But the ones I've lost in legal venue ducked. I thought about killing all of them but a few. Keeping just a couple cause they been in family so long. But they are good birds some just duck more than others. It's funny though I hadn't noticed it until last year when the old man pointed it out. And he's right most greys do. It sucks when you rattle someone so bad in the fly that they coughing up that dark blood. But second pitting take your lungs out while hes dying and you die first cause of your rooster ducked and the other rooster hits that sweet spot. Lmao. That's the game though boys.
    Last edited by Bama71; May 29th, 2019 at 07:11 PM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Bama71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    NE AL
    Posts
    518
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdderfly View Post
    Lots of grey families have had hatch infused to and bottom and lot of the dead game old time hatches will duck or reach for beak hold if you have a dark legged family of greys I wouldn't cross to hatches cause more times than not they all ready have hatch in them try cross with speed fowl
    I see what your saying but they were set as a strain 40 years ago.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Birdderfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    G.F s.carolina
    Posts
    1,125
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama71 View Post
    I see what your saying but they were set as a strain 40 years ago.
    When I started in the early 80s most greys were yl and wl speed cutters that didnt have bottom end power now in my area most of the good greys are gl and bl I have couple grey families I have singleton greys wt greene and 2 lines of regular greys bl and gl and the dark leg lines show better full but the yl have to be crossed .The singleton greys work good for me over my Boston rh hens but I dont have the ducking problem now but culling and experience selective breeding was my solution

  13. #13
    Senior Member Bama71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    NE AL
    Posts
    518
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    I think its because it's time to freshen up and cull hard. Like skincarver said it's going to be hard cause they don't always show it. The base blood for these is harold brown greys. I've got a buddy that got me a hen from a guy that got them direct like my pawpaw did. I'm going to add it. See I've got a peacomb and straight comb. The straights seem to do it more. So I've already started breeding towards the peacomb. But only time will tell. I'm going to cull hard and see if I can't straighten them out.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Steel city farm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    On the Farm
    Posts
    1,229
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama71 View Post
    I have a line of hatch greys that been in the family a while. I've seen a few try and duck under the other bird and get caught in back. An older man told me a lot of grey families do this. That's why he wont own one. Some of mine do some dont. But is it because it needs freshened up or do most grey families do this. And are there any causes for them to do this. Is it traits of the family even though some do and others dont. Is it all grey birds
    Or is it learned and how can we correct it. They dont get sparred much so I know that's not it. Even in keep mine only get sparred 3 times a week and other than that every now and then and that's to see which ones will do what.
    . U say they don’t spar much but when u do spar them how long are u letting them go ? Not saying this is your problem but it doesn’t take long to create bad habits ! I don’t let mine ever go more then a couple seconds at most. Couple Buckles is all that’s needed ! Anything more then taht your asking for trouble and more then likely will start creating bad habits. I Shake my head and laugh when I hear people say all greys have this ducking trait. That’s so far from the truth ! They are watching the wrong greys if they belive this.
    Last edited by Steel city farm; May 29th, 2019 at 09:18 PM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,340
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Years ago like in the 60's. Greys were known as duckers. I believe that's all changed over the years. Weight, out of shape, sick fowl will all duck. Just to mention a few. When a fowl cant get air for one or multiple reasons, they will duck and do other crazy ****.

  16. #16
    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    7,675
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    To me, any fowl that duck are culls. Its a genetic weakeness. People insist it can be learned. I agree it can be taught to sub par fowl. Ive seen too many great bloodlines that NEVER duck.

  17. #17
    Member gobolts0513's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    CALIFORNIA
    Posts
    243
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Knowing when to duck and dodge a lick and counter give that one shot and downs they go, is by far more calculated than ducking when no need too, that usually spells trouble. I've witness many cocks in my hands an others duck a cock come storming in, an win clean in less than a minute. Seen a great many Claret and Butchers do all the time!! Anythings possible once yah turn em loose..

  18. #18
    Senior Member Bama71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    NE AL
    Posts
    518
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Yeah I mean they don't run up and under with head down. They are trying to duck up and under trying to get the other rooster to miss. But almost like timing is off and they get caught.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Steel city farm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    On the Farm
    Posts
    1,229
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    To me, any fowl that duck are culls. Its a genetic weakeness. People insist it can be learned. I agree it can be taught to sub par fowl. Ive seen too many great bloodlines that NEVER duck.
    . There is lots of reason a cock will duck. It can b taught by sparring to long , fat and in healthy cocks will duck to. It’s a trait taht can also b passed down from the brood pens also . so yes it can b genetic . We can all just assume what it is but if Bama71 if u are not happy with them best thing to do is cull and move on because they will cost u money in the long run. Don’t feed and dam sure don’t breed anything that you are not 100 percent happy with !
    Last edited by Steel city farm; May 30th, 2019 at 01:15 AM.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Bama71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    NE AL
    Posts
    518
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    I've done 70 percent with them this year in good competition. Some of it maybe I had higher expectations for them befits the first time in 15 years I've showed them. They are good birds. The first hack I went to probably 35 people there. In legal venue and probably 10 tried to buy one. Some of it maybe me cause I got out of it so long. I have no problem culling I'll kill everything that's not physically perfect. In a lot of ways I'm a perfectionist lol. I'm going to breed towards the side that doesn't do it. And I'm going to cull the rest. I appreciate everyone's input and opinion. Thanks guys.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2,244
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama71 View Post
    That one you got from me did he duck. I've done pretty good with them this year. I had not noticed it until that old man said something about it lol. I'm wondering if they don't need freshened up. This year I bred towards the side that doesn't duck. But I agree with you I may never get it totally out. You've seen them they are good cutters very aggressive and are game to the core. But the ones I've lost in legal venue ducked. I thought about killing all of them but a few. Keeping just a couple cause they been in family so long. But they are good birds some just duck more than others. It's funny though I hadn't noticed it until last year when the old man pointed it out. And he's right most greys do. It sucks when you rattle someone so bad in the fly that they coughing up that dark blood. But second pitting take your lungs out while hes dying and you die first cause of your rooster ducked and the other rooster hits that sweet spot. Lmao. That's the game though boys.
    A lot of times a rooster will spar one way but when gets hit with steel will take on a whole new style good or bad . I never noticed the Grey I got from you offering to duck but as you know I didn't get a chance to see . That's about the only three options you have really would be to try and raise twice as many, add outside blood if you don't have a separate line of them or simply let them go. Honestly if they really excel in other areas I would first try the first two options before giving up on them but if I had a chance to get some that were just as good in all other areas or better that didn't duck I would really consider it . You said the Muff Grey cross were exceptional roosters. Might want to think on adding a little of the Muff blood permanently . Either way you go if you keep them raise as many as possible and cull hard . If things go well I might be able to give you a Grey pullet or two to see if that helps. I guess if they were mine it would just depend on how much ducking we are talking about or dealing with . A lot of birds will duck at certain times . Its excessive ducking that Im talking about. But then again when matched into a sharp shooter all it takes is that one time to get stretched out

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    7,166
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    This is not about greys but is about duckers. My dad had an old peacomb pumkin family that come from Duke Hulsey. The guy he got them from said that Duke called him up and said he'd sold him the wrong cock and to come pick out another and bring that one back. He refused to give him back. Anyway my wife use to go with us all the time and she'd ask what we was fighting and I'd say dads pumpkins and she'd make an ugly face and say I hate those ducking pumpkins. They would win but scare you to death the whole fight. They would dodge and duck and mess a good cock up. Once the lulled the other cock into their fight boom boom winner. Some can get by with a duck once in a while. Hard to duck under an ace that's on though. I seen the key was to go under real quick and turn as you come out and hit back before the other cock turns.

  23. #23
    Senior Member gaffer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,189
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Gotta breed it out of them, know anyone with whites? Not cuban but american, may put a dasch of that in them, you could use black but I think it makes greys dirty lookin.

  24. #24
    Senior Member CA whitetoppy06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    1,805
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    I enjoyed this thread as it pertains to my own situation.. partly.


    many good responses but the most positive for me was gobolts and gaffer.. I’d agree on the whites last time I had some seemed they were constantly hopping around.. didn’t have power nor desire to bang it out.. but kept hopping atleast to get over and strike from behind..plus they would make some purdy colored greys..


    have a good day everyone.

  25. #25
    Senior Member gaffer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,189
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    What brand were those hopping whites cao6? Just curious.

  26. #26
    Senior Member CA whitetoppy06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    1,805
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Quote Originally Posted by gaffer View Post
    What brand were those hopping whites cao6? Just curious.


    An old acquaintance showed up with a white hen told me she was claret so I donít truly know.. she was straight comb pearl legged and beak.. I donít know how they behaved as I only had the hen.. but I bred my red toppy (pearl legs pearl beak) over her and the stags fought different than daddy, seemed like they were all over the place.. but constantly would fly over do a couple kicks land behind opponent as opponent turned to engage they would hop over again chopping a few licks.. and if the bigger power bird got a billhold theyíd frantically fight out of it backwards..or tumble forward and catch a hard shuffle.. seen em dazed but still calculate.. werenít gamest Iím sure but they never ran at 6-7 months vs anything I put up for them to spar.

    wish I could have seen them at 2 years.. matured.. looking back though I can appreciate them more now as they were unique.

  27. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Nowhereville
    Posts
    1,709
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    I was told my several sk men that ducking birds are birds that are trying to hide their head because of bad sparing habits.

    Now...

    Oriental fowl.

    There's lines called under wing....under wing pluckers.....plucker.

    These are fighting techniques and traits we breed for.

    If you were just breeding a name not paying attention to techniques...you may have locked in that gene in their gene pool now.

    You can't breed this out.

    Its better to start from scratch if you don't like it.

    Lock in the traits you're after...it's what you will produce.

    Sounds to me like you were just breeding grey's....

    Oriental have a gene called free kick.....that's what you want to lock in for the steel

  28. #28
    Senior Member Steel city farm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    On the Farm
    Posts
    1,229
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    Quote Originally Posted by Lino Zuniga View Post
    I was told my several sk men that ducking birds are birds that are trying to hide their head because of bad sparing habits.

    Now...

    Oriental fowl.

    There's lines called under wing....under wing pluckers.....plucker.

    These are fighting techniques and traits we breed for.

    If you were just breeding a name not paying attention to techniques...you may have locked in that gene in their gene pool now.

    You can't breed this out.

    Its better to start from scratch if you don't like it.

    Lock in the traits you're after...it's what you will produce.

    Sounds to me like you were just breeding grey's....

    Oriental have a gene called free kick.....that's what you want to lock in for the steel
    . This has always been my opinion about ducking fowl is its a bad habit being taught by bad sparing techniques. Now I’m sure some can b genetic to but it’s been my experience from seeing people spar there fowl to long and the wrong technique. JMHO ! If u have well bred fowl and good sparring practices from the very first time a stag or cock is sparred then u should never have fowl that duck unless you are breeding straight up junk
    Last edited by Steel city farm; June 29th, 2019 at 06:03 AM.

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,818
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    In my opinion it is selection. It will not happen over night but with good book keeping. You can breed this trait out. Keep records of which Brood hens and Brood cocks are producing the cocks that ducts under. You or I can selectively breed in or out traits we want or don’t want

  30. #30
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2,244
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Ducking greys

    I would have to agree that there is a BIG difference between ducking at the last minute as the only option to evade a lethal blow vs one that uses excessive ducking as its main defense . A rooster that ducks excessively may have in his mind that he will make the other bird miss but a well timed bird wont miss . Especially if given multiple opportunities . A bird that ducks excessively might still win but not normally against a well timed bird and they aren't broodpen worthy. Honestly its another form of fighting scared like back peddling or jumping around too much . That and a sign of unintelligence .

    While it might be possible to make some fowl adopt this trait from and early age I don't really think its that common among fowl that it doesn't run in there genes. For example if a young stag got skin headed from an early age as they sometimes do among fowl that come to themselves very early , seems that if it could be taught then these types of birds would be ones that would be guaranteed duckers and that just simply isn't true in most of the cases Ive seen.

    So in other words if a mishap where one gets its skull peeled doesn't warrant reason enough for all those to duck then a good hard sparring shouldn't either. Not saying a person should let their fowl wallow around .Not saying that at all but if they start showing signs of ducking while sparring better to find it out then and cull them that to find it out later or on your money fight if you are in a place where that's still legal. You just have to be honest with yourself and decide whats acceptable to you and whats not. If fowl that do this are otherwise excellent then it might be worth the time to try and breed away from it by selective breeding but if the majority are ducking then I would personally try for some better fowl. It would save anybody a lot of time ,trouble and heartache not to mention hip trouble LOL.
    Last edited by Skincarver; June 29th, 2019 at 12:07 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •