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Thread: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

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    Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Sould we try to emulate nature by providing substantially more protein during the moult? For free rangers nature offers a variety of insects and worms which are 50% plus protein. These foods are more abundant during moulting and growing season for our fowl. Can members offer solutions to our fowl's nutritional needs during this critical time? Especially for our penned fowl.

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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    When figuring out percent protein it is important to take into account the entire diet. Insects may be higher in protein, but what percentage of the diet do they represent? I don't know the answer, so just asking. Too much dietary protein can be a bad thing.

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    Senior Member Lino Zuniga's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Yes. Dog food my fowl like diamond lamb and rice....they always steel my dogs food I started giving it to penned fowl. They seem to like it keeps good weight on them and feathers come in strong.

    Just make sure and keep diatomaceous earth in their diet too or they will develop worms quickly...seems meats give them worms almost immediately if you don't use diatomaceous earth with their meals

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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    I have been providing apx 20% in the total mix. Their droppings are still firm. The pellets contain DE but I may add more since the suggestion was made to do so. Don't want to over do. I usually feed a good pre mix called uppercut which is 16% protein. It is similar to the old Jimmy East food. Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of space so grass is rare. I have to provide most of the vegitation. I found a 16% alfalfa pellet. I soak this with a high meat dog food 22% and this is added to the total mix. I mix this daily and try to hit 20% on the combined food for now. I have enough hard grain dry to keep the gizzard healthy and add granit grit and oyster shell to the mix twice a week. Most of my fowl are in pens that cannot be moved so the feeding I employ will be different than someone with enough grassland to keep them on fresh ground. Any tips are appreciated. Some ofour members are like scientist on nutrician.

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    Senior Member springwater's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    I like to give less protein this time of year as they are dropping feathers around July and August and then around middle to late September as the feathers start coming back in start increasing it again to normal then around October when they are really putting on feathers start giving them a little extra protein.

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    Senior Member roostercm's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by springwater View Post
    I like to give less protein this time of year as they are dropping feathers around July and August and then around middle to late September as the feathers start coming back in start increasing it again to normal then around October when they are really putting on feathers start giving them a little extra protein.
    i do the same also when time to add i use indoor cat food and 22% layer pellet

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    Senior Member Lino Zuniga's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    You guys are saying you give less protein...how much less are you giving 12-13 % or closer to 9-10%?

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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    I found a 9 or 11 way scratch that is 11% protein its basically a gamefowl feed mix without the pellets I give this to them for a month or so and the feathers start coming off. Like springwater said September start feeding them good again and supplement with a little cat food and their feathers come in really nice.

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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by springwater View Post
    I like to give less protein this time of year as they are dropping feathers around July and August and then around middle to late September as the feathers start coming back in start increasing it again to normal then around October when they are really putting on feathers start giving them a little extra protein.
    I see where that could be beneficial. Cutting back on the protein could accelerate the moulting process. I may be increasing too early.

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    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    If they had blood feathers , I feed hamburger meat ... I've tried other stuff but it's just way faster and easier to feed hamburger than mess with liver , boiled eggs ... or changing a feed mix . I know folks like to talk about catfish food , dog food , cat food or whatever but why not just feed the real thing and not worry about a trade off with ingredients in other species feed .

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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    fish mill works real well..... use from 1st oct till end nov they really do good.......

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    Senior Member Al Sanchez's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by CIGAR View Post
    fish mill works real well..... use from 1st oct till end nov they really do good.......
    Agreed. I get shrimp meal from a local shrimp processing plant and the birds love it mixed in with boiled rice and plantains...

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    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    I have bought the canned mackerel and feed three times a week to stags with blood feathers and it doesn't put the shine on them that red meat does . I am also feeding a dry dog food that is almost a fish meal itself but easier to store .

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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Free Range, is great if you can do it (I can't). I remember years ago. a feller was saying that he only needed to add corn to his free range roosters. A lot depends on what they free range on. A rooster on a horse ranch might not need much, if anything.

    The cure all, is soaked oats, for more protein. It does not get much better than that.

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    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Chickens have feathers and no tummy .... so they will eat anything , not complain or show being upset .. and we can't see muscle tone like on horse ... that is the biggest factor that make our feed mixes look good , not because they work like we think .



    Cereals and legumes are outstanding sources of macronutrients, micronutrients, phytochemicals, as well as antinutritional factors. These components present a complex system enabling interactions with different components within food matrices. The interactions result in insoluble complexes with reduced bioaccessibility of nutrients through binding and entrapment thereby limiting their release from food matrices. The interactions of nutrients with antinutritional factors are the main factor hindering nutrients release. Trypsin inhibitors and phytates inherent in cereals and legumes reduce protein digestibility and mineral release, respectively. Interaction of phytates and phenolic compounds with minerals is significant in cereals and legumes. Fermentation and germination are commonly used to disrupt these interactions and make nutrients and phytochemicals free and accessible to digestive enzymes. This paper presents a review on traditional fermentation and germination processes as a means to address myriad interactions through activation of endogenous enzymes such as α‐amylase, pullulanase, phytase, and other glucosidases. These enzymes degrade antinutritional factors and break down complex macronutrients to their simple and more digestible forms.


    1. INTRODUCTION

    Processing of agricultural products remains the most important food and nutrition security aspect in the modern world. Due to urbanization, food is produced in remote areas and transported into towns or cities to feed the ever‐growing population. The seasonality of agricultural produce also necessitates processing of products so that they are available throughout the year. Processing of agricultural products is done to improve consumer acceptability while retaining its nutritional value. Different techniques are used for processing cereals and legumes that include fermentation and germination. Most processing techniques are localized to a certain region, while others are practiced across the world. For example, fermentation and malting are common practice in developing countries of Africa and South America, while nixtamalization is a common practice in Mexico. Fermented foods such as “ogi,” produced by acid fermentation of sorghum, millet, or maize, are widely consumed in West Africa (Omemu, 2011), while “chicha” and “masa” are common fermented foods made from fermented maize widely consumed in South American countries (Chaves‐Lopez et al., 2014). In central and southern Africa, “nshima” is made from fermented maize flour. While these techniques are important in improving the shelf life, palatability, and transportability, they can also have adverse effects on the nutrient profiles of these foods. Overall, it appears that some techniques such as fermentation and malting can simultaneously reduce antinutritional factors and enhance nutrient availability (Hotz & Gibson, 2007). Since fermentation and germination are widely used for processing cereals and legumes which constitute a large part of diets for households in developing countries, here we provide a review of how these techniques influence nutrient content and availability.

    2. FERMENTATION

    Fermentation is a desirable process of biochemical modification of primary food matrix brought about by microorganisms and their enzymes (Kahajdova & Karovicova, 2007). Fermentation is used to enhance the bioaccessibility and bioavailability of nutrients from different crops including maize (Hotz & Gibson, 2007) and improves organoleptic properties as well as extending the shelf life (Chaves‐Lopez et al., 2014; Li, Tayie, Young, Rocheford, & White, 2007; Steinkraus, 1994). It makes food safe by not only inhibiting growth of pathogenic bacteria due to antimicrobial activity of lactic acid (Li et al., 2007; Sahlin, 1999), but also detoxifies aflatoxin (Chaves‐Lopez et al., 2014).
    With these desirable benefits, fermentation has been considered as an effective way to reduce the risk of mineral deficiency among populations, especially in developing countries where unrefined cereals and/or pulses are highly consumed (Kumar, Sinha, Makkar, & Becker, 2010). Unfortunately, it is also associated with proliferation of microorganisms such as yeast and molds that may cause food safety concerns (Omemu, 2011), reduction in provitamin A and antioxidant carotenoids (Ortiz, Nkhata, Buechler, Rocheford, & Ferruzzi, 2017), as well as loss of vitamins and minerals (Hotz & Gibson, 2007).

    3. EFFECT OF FERMENTATION ON NUTRIENTS AND MINERALS

    3.1. Carbohydrates

    The major carbohydrate in cereals and legumes is starch which provides the most calories in developing countries (Chaves‐Lopez et al., 2014). Fermentation activates starch‐hydrolyzing enzymes such as α‐amylase and maltase which degrade starch into maltodextrins and simple sugars (Osman, 2011), respectively. Studies have shown increase in glucose during early stages of fermentation due to starch‐hydrolyzing effect of activated maltase and α‐amylase (El‐Hag, El‐Tinay, & Yousif, 2002; Osman, 2011). The glucose released during fermentation is a preferred substrate for microorganisms fermenting the food and could partly explain the decrease in total carbohydrate after 24 hr of fermentation (Osman, 2011). When both glucose and fructose were present during fermentation of pearl millet, microorganisms preferred glucose to fructose as a source of energy since the level of fructose remained constant. In addition, fermentation reduced starch content in millet varieties with subsequent increase in carbon dioxide and ethanol production throughout fermentation period. Moreover, pH was significantly reduced which activated phytase enzyme (El‐Hag et al., 2002).

    3.2. Protein

    The effect of fermentation on proteins has yielded inconsistent results likely due to different experimental designs, study durations, and variation in the initial protein or amino acid profile of foods. Several studies had reported increase (Chaven & Kadam, 1989; Doudu, Taylor, Belton, & Hamaker, 2003; El‐Hag et al., 2002; Pranoto, Anggrahini, & Efendi, 2013), while others observed decrease (Osman, 2011; Pranoto et al., 2013) in protein and/or some amino acids upon fermentation. It appears that most of these effects may not reflect actual changes but relative changes due to loss of dry matter as a result of microorganisms hydrolyzing and metabolizing carbohydrates and fats as source of energy. Fermentation of pearl millet for 24 hr increased protein content due to loss of carbohydrates (Osman, 2011). Lysine, glycine, and arginine were reduced (Osman, 2011), while methionine was increased (Chaven & Kadam, 1989) after fermentation. While increase in protein may partly be attributed to loss of dry matter during fermentation, bacterial fermentation is known to increase lysine content in fermented grains (Hamad & Fields, 1979). Bacterial fermentation produced lysine and increased its concentration by many folds and made cereal protein complete (Hamad & Fields, 1979). This increase may partly be due to degradation of complex protein by microorganism thereby releasing peptides and amino acids (Pranoto et al., 2013). However, it is reported that fermenting microorganisms also uses amino acid which could lower the protein content and quality of some fermented food (Osman, 2011; Pranoto et al., 2013).
    Fermentation increases the digestibility of plant proteins (Ali, El‐Tinay, & Abdalla, 2003; Alka, Neelam, & Shruti, 2012; El‐Hag et al., 2002; Pranoto et al., 2013). Plant protein has poor digestibility relative to animal protein. Poor protein digestibility may cause gastrointestinal upset which may result in fecal excretion of protein. Hence, increased protein digestibility could reduce the levels of undigested proteins which can potentially cause food allergies due to poor absorption in the gut (Untersmayr & Jensen‐Jarolim, 2008). Combination of fermentation with other processing methods has more advantages. For example, fermentation followed by cooking was effective in increasing the digestibility of grain protein, bringing it nearly to the same level as meat(Khetarpaul & Chauhan, 1990; Osman, 2004; Yousif & El Tinayi, 2001, 2003) likely due to not only destruction of protease (trypsin) inhibitors (Khetarpaul & Chauhan, 1990; Osman, 2011) but also partial predigestion of grain proteins by bacteria during fermentation (Day & Morawicki, 2018). There is also reduction in tannins, oxalate, phytic acid, and carbohydrates which can complex with proteins and hence limiting accessibility by digestive enzymes (El‐Hag et al., 2002; Hassan, Yusuf, Adebolu, & Onifade, 2015; Osman, 2011; Sindhu & Khetarpaul, 2001).
    More improvement in protein digestibility by fermentation is due to partial breakdown of complex storage protein into more soluble forms (Chavan, Chavan, & Kadam, 1988). Since the effectiveness of fermentation depends on activation of phytase, it is not surprising that fermenting roasted or cooked grains does not reduce phytic acid significantly as roasting or cooking destroy phytase (Egli, Davidsson, Juillerat, Barclay, & Hurrell, 2002). Furthermore, the degree of phytic acid degradation depends on the starting amount of phytase in the grain as grains with low phytase amounts such as corn, rice, oats, and millet require either a longer fermentation time or the addition of high‐phytase grains to significantly reduce phytates (Egli, Davidsson, Juillerat, Barclay, & Hurrell, 2003).
    Fermentation can be done using starter culture or naturally. Due to lack of specificity, natural fermentation is less effective and nonpredictable but is most common form of fermentation in developing countries. Pranoto et al. (2013) compared the effect of Lactobacillus plantarum and natural fermentation for 36 hr on protein digestibility of sorghum flours using in vitro models. Protein digestibility was increased by 92% and 47% using L. plantarum and natural fermentation, respectively. This increase was attributed to increased proteolytic enzymes in L. plantarum that can not only degrade tannins which complex with proteins but also break down complex proteins thereby liberating more peptides and amino acids. In fact, Doudu et al. (2003) have previously reported that L. plantarum possess tannase that can cleave the protein–tannin complex thereby liberating proteins. Unfortunately, fermenting microflora can also utilize amino acids and protein during fermentation resulting in loss of amino acid and proteins (Pranoto et al., 2013). Therefore, it remains unclear on the optimum conditions for fermentation that could lead to maximum protein digestibility with minimal loss of protein (Table 1).

    Last edited by Quapaw Kid; August 13th, 2019 at 01:17 AM.

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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by bazsdmeg2u View Post
    Free Range, is great if you can do it (I can't). I remember years ago. a feller was saying that he only needed to add corn to his free range roosters. A lot depends on what they free range on. A rooster on a horse ranch might not need much, if anything.

    The cure all, is soaked oats, for more protein. It does not get much better than that.
    I've never seen so many grasshoppers and crickets as there is this year around my house as this year. I don't know about other parts of the country but I did see the news with billions of grasshoppers in Las Vegas. Any way I mowed part of the horse pasture and about 25 stags and pullets got a craw full in just a few minutes. I notice at daylight this morning the pasture was full of young fowl . I lose a few but well worth the payoff for me.

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    Senior Member gaffer's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    If ya have left over deer meet. Give it to em.

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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Small amount of blood meal will work good. You can have your local mill mix it in your pellet mix. Bloodmeal is 60% protein and has a wealth of minerals in it. Use a small amount only .

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    The human mind always tries to add itself to a solution that was never needed.
    The healthiest birds I’ve ever seen were fed 16% pellet, corn & oats throughout the entire year

    I use to feed things you guys would never think of. Multivitamins with phytonutrients, ionic minerals, amino acids, $70 sacs of 30 pound dog food, super duper desiccated wild liver from Brazil, $25, 50# sacs of top notch feed with every type of grain in there and even more crap I've forgotten. All a waste of money.
    i know of people who feed HUMAN GRADE grains only. They also feed high protein pellet. Ive done the same in both above scenarios.
    I found that the BEST way is the cheapest —- corn, dry oats & 15-16% protein pellet.

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    Senior Member Quapaw Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    The human mind always tries to add itself to a solution that was never needed.
    The healthiest birds I’ve ever seen were fed 16% pellet, corn & oats throughout the entire year

    I use to feed things you guys would never think of. Multivitamins with phytonutrients, ionic minerals, amino acids, $70 sacs of 30 pound dog food, super duper desiccated wild liver from Brazil, $25, 50# sacs of top notch feed with every type of grain in there and even more crap I've forgotten. All a waste of money.
    i know of people who feed HUMAN GRADE grains only. They also feed high protein pellet. Ive done the same in both above scenarios.
    I found that the BEST way is the cheapest —- corn, dry oats & 15-16% protein pellet.
    Your list is pretty typical stuff we've all thought of ... do you have another list with the secret stuff on it ?

    The livestock feed industry is all about getting gains and results ... growth , eggs ,etc . They don't do any research or studies on non performance animals ... there is no reason or money in it . A rooster hanging out on a cord , dome pen or even scratching - we don't know what his requirements are but it has to be a fraction of what broilers and layers need .... there's no other way that every single variation in feed mixes and all the " oats are great " ... or " cat food " etc would work if game roosters had specific needs of any significance

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by Quapaw Kid View Post
    Your list is pretty typical stuff we've all thought of ... do you have another list with the secret stuff on it ?

    The livestock feed industry is all about getting gains and results ... growth , eggs ,etc . They don't do any research or studies on non performance animals ... there is no reason or money in it . A rooster hanging out on a cord , dome pen or even scratching - we don't know what his requirements are but it has to be a fraction of what broilers and layers need .... there's no other way that every single variation in feed mixes and all the " oats are great " ... or " cat food " etc would work if game roosters had specific needs of any significance
    Unique type of blue green algae, unique probiotics, digestive enzymes, royal jelly, unique type Sea weed, wild bee pollen, skate fermented oil, mct oil, ionic minerals and all kinds or organic fruits and veges.
    Why u think I used ionic minerals? I still do just for a very different reason.
    once again, pretty much all a waste of time and money.
    Last edited by MONGOOSE; August 14th, 2019 at 01:26 AM.

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    Senior Member aguazarca's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGOOSE View Post
    I found that the BEST way is the cheapest —- corn, dry oats & 15-16% protein pellet.
    How many parts pellets, corn and oats, mongoose?

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by aguazarca View Post
    How many parts pellets, corn and oats, mongoose?
    Half pellet, quarter of the others. Less corn summertime.

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    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    I've been to a cocker's yard where he hangs a dead racoon on a tree. All the worms eating the rotten dead racoon falling to the ground are eaten by his chickens. Now that's natures free protein.

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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by Camarines View Post
    I've been to a cocker's yard where he hangs a dead racoon on a tree. All the worms eating the rotten dead racoon falling to the ground are eaten by his chickens. Now that's natures free protein.
    Can't say itsnothappened here but I'd say it's a no no! I've also seen limberneack.

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    Senior Member CA whitetoppy06's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    I agree lablue.. sadly this was one of my first mistakes my first go around raising Gamefowl..

    I also wouldn’t recommend raw oysters (I ate the good ones threw the not so good ones out in yard).. botulism I believe is what I read it was.. I hear a person can farm maggots a certain way to clean them out of it?? Kinda like crawfish and cornmeal but I’m not raising flies on purpose..

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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by springwater View Post
    I like to give less protein this time of year as they are dropping feathers around July and August and then around middle to late September as the feathers start coming back in start increasing it again to normal then around October when they are really putting on feathers start giving them a little extra protein.
    Great tip Jay...appreciate that. makes a lot of sense.

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    Senior Member springwater's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Quote Originally Posted by Lino Zuniga View Post
    You guys are saying you give less protein...how much less are you giving 12-13 % or closer to 9-10%?
    I would say my lowest point is right at 12% and my highest point is at 18%. I keep my ingredients the same, just adjust the amount of each that I mix until I get desired protein level. My feed mix is really simple. Just a good 22% pellet, an eleven way scratch, and a good animal protein based dog food. When I go low on protein I don't put in very much of the pellets and very little if any dog food. When I go higher I increase the amount of pellets and dog food. I do add a little wheat germ oil couple times a month during cooler months but not too much and also a little vitamin mix I make when I am mixing the feed. I mix red cell, licithinic(I know I botched up the spelling pretty bad but what do you expect from a redneck) and water. Just a little goes a long way. I mix it in a spray bottle and just give a few sprays as the feed is mixing. I give a little more when they have their blood feathers and need the extra iron. I also add a little Diametaceous Earth (another big word I probably misspelled) and the vitamin mix or wheat germ oil gives it something to stick to. I have mixed high priced feed mixes before but have found this simple mix with good quality ingredients works just as well and keeps my feed costs below $14 a 50#. My pellets run me a little under $12, my scratch is $12.25 and the dog food is $30. The scratch is really good stuff and has grit already mixed in. If it didn't I would add grit because I believe a chicken cant get all of the nutrients out of their feed without a good source of grit. I also believe in probiotics. My dog food and my chick starter both have them already so I don't have to add any. For my chicks, I start them out on a good 18% Chick starter, I have started them out on the more expensive 24% before but really didn't see any difference. After a month, I start adding a little scratch. At 4 months I add 25% scratch. I feed them this until time to pen when I switch them to my regular yard feed. Pretty simple feed program for me that seems to work well.

  29. #29
    Member Mossy Dell's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Sounds like a great program, Jay. I like the simplicity but quality of your mix.

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    Senior Member Lino Zuniga's Avatar
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    Re: Nature Provides More Protein During Moult

    Thank you for your reply Jay....glad you're not one of the ones trying to give me the silent treatment to see if I go.


    I will definitely try your method


    Quote Originally Posted by springwater View Post
    I would say my lowest point is right at 12% and my highest point is at 18%. I keep my ingredients the same, just adjust the amount of each that I mix until I get desired protein level. My feed mix is really simple. Just a good 22% pellet, an eleven way scratch, and a good animal protein based dog food. When I go low on protein I don't put in very much of the pellets and very little if any dog food. When I go higher I increase the amount of pellets and dog food. I do add a little wheat germ oil couple times a month during cooler months but not too much and also a little vitamin mix I make when I am mixing the feed. I mix red cell, licithinic(I know I botched up the spelling pretty bad but what do you expect from a redneck) and water. Just a little goes a long way. I mix it in a spray bottle and just give a few sprays as the feed is mixing. I give a little more when they have their blood feathers and need the extra iron. I also add a little Diametaceous Earth (another big word I probably misspelled) and the vitamin mix or wheat germ oil gives it something to stick to. I have mixed high priced feed mixes before but have found this simple mix with good quality ingredients works just as well and keeps my feed costs below $14 a 50#. My pellets run me a little under $12, my scratch is $12.25 and the dog food is $30. The scratch is really good stuff and has grit already mixed in. If it didn't I would add grit because I believe a chicken cant get all of the nutrients out of their feed without a good source of grit. I also believe in probiotics. My dog food and my chick starter both have them already so I don't have to add any. For my chicks, I start them out on a good 18% Chick starter, I have started them out on the more expensive 24% before but really didn't see any difference. After a month, I start adding a little scratch. At 4 months I add 25% scratch. I feed them this until time to pen when I switch them to my regular yard feed. Pretty simple feed program for me that seems to work well.

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