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Thread: What makes a hatch?

  
  1. #1
    Senior Member grey/dom's Avatar
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    What makes a hatch?

    What makes a green legged rooster we can called hatch? A yellow legged we can call hatch?
    it can be black. It can be a mug. It can be leiper. Yellow legged can be a kelso, a claret. A sweater.
    when can we call them hatch?

    isnt it the breeder was sandy hatch?

    enlightened me.

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    Senior Member MONGOOSE's Avatar
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    Re: What makes a hatch?

    Your right, it can be anything. Everyone views gameness differently. I know people who dont like hatch at all and do good.

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    Senior Member Camarines's Avatar
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    Re: What makes a hatch?

    This is what I was told. A yellow legged hatch is the smarter hatch but a green legged hatch shuffles harder.

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    Senior Member KevinG's Avatar
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    Re: What makes a hatch?

    Nowadays I cldnt tell you GD and I dont mean any disrespect to anyone with the modern versions of GL Hatch, just being honest. I cld tell you about back then, its what I grew up with for a good portion of my life since I cld walk to about 16 years ago. Things always evolve, but its not always necessarily for the better.
    SF

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    Re: What makes a hatch?

    Onc again we call them hatch rathe r yellow leg or. Green.

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    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
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    Re: What makes a hatch?

    There are at least two types of older Yellow Legged Hatch . Some of the original Mcleans were yellow legged . Then you have the other YLH that's been around for years as well as well but a different breeding than the Mcleans. My Ruble and Mclean all are born yellow legs but always change to dark . While other lines of Hatch Ive owned were born green . I asked about it when I first got them and he guaranteed they would change and they did. Said they had been that way the 30+ years he had owned them.

    To answer your other question yes, Sanford Hatch was the originator of Hatch fowl . Before that they were Brownred / Whitehackle crosses is what I always thought and following history of the Mcleans one would think it true. But according to Piper Sanford didn't really know hat they were. One things for sure theyre all chicken good or bad .

    Read it if you like and decide for yourself who youre gonna believe I guess. Harry Parr or E.T. Piper . Maybe since Parr said their make up AT THE TIME Ted got them was the key . Sanford may have and likely did change them after. One thing old timers did that many don't do today. If a blood was good but not good enough they would add to it and make it better.

  10. #7
    Senior Member Skincarver's Avatar
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    Re: What makes a hatch?

    Here you go Grey/Dom this oughta keep you busy a while LOL.

    HATCH
    Hatch Fowl
    by George Beattie
    I doubt very much if anyone could give you an authentic history on this great breed, named Hatch. I knew Sandy Hatch pretty well, having met him innumerable times at Flaherty’s Pit, both in the old days at Laurel Hill, back of Calvary cemetery by the chemical works, and at Flaherty’s later location at the Queensboro at Long Island City.
    I also fought against him in mains and was in his and Flaherty’s company in many safaris to Tom Foley’s pit in Troy, NY, but I never inquired as to the make-up of his fowl and doubt if I could have received the information if I had.
    A story was rampant that Hatch gave John Leiper his farm at Huntington for his start in the fowl. Leiper handled in all the mains I fought against Hatch. He was supposed to have obtained his fowl from a race track official, Mars Cassidy. The fowl all came dark red in those early days and had a hard smash. Some claimed that they were low headed sulkers, for you could knock one down and in those days of N.Y. rules, where the handlers did the counting and a mistake could cost you the battle on the final count. They could uncork a smash that could so stun, cripple or kill your cock that he could easily be counted out.
    I do know that when Heinie took over, a couple of years after he had obtained a yard of my Morgans from Mr. Claude Hill, that a cross between them and the Hatch blood, produced what Hendrickson, Leiper, and Bon Lang as well as John Gildersleeve, termed the best fighting cocks ever shown on the Island and the addition of the Thompson Mahogany blood which also contained a shot of Morgan, as Jim fought many mains in partnership with the Col., did much to bring them to the top, elimintating to a great extent the objectionable low headedness.
    It was after the introduction of the Whitehackle blood that Tom Murphy became interested and the Long Island stable was formed. From World War I until 1942 I promoted tournaments in New Jersey, starting at the Old Deaf and Dum Club at Bill Raes at Morgan station when Frank Deizer of Mason Pyle fame was President and George Beattie, V.P. until gas rationing stopped us in 1942. Hatch, Leiper, George Pogmore, Al Jones, Harold Clesham, John Gildersleeve, Hendrickson and Rekar, Ted Ireland, Chas Storey, Herb Ploch, Issy Sholk, Frank Donato, Pat and Mat Ryan, Illston, Deinzer, Bill Anderson, Beloff, Knight, Burnett, Nee Shanahan, Haussman, Kromelbine, among others, fought ay my Eastern Breeders Pit where Henry Mondin one of the fairest referees called the shots.
    Many of the entrants of the big pits still in operation got their start in the “Club” that operated every Friday night, and the tournaments every 2nd. Saturday night held there from Jan. 1 to July 4. In all those years only one raid and that at a different location, marred the record and that was directed at a “crap game” on a supposedly off night.
    I’m proud of the record I made in refining the game and furnishing honest refereeing for the sport. For many years Issy Sholk was my partner in the promoting and later giuded the destinies of the Anthracite Club of PA.
    At 80, I’m still in good health, and my Morgans are still winning their share in the hands of customers I placed them with.


    Gilmore Hatch

    By BluffCreek
    Lun Gilmore was a cocker and a good friens of ben ford,they fought birds with and agianst each other for over 60 years..lun gilmore accired his birds direct from sanford hatch and mike kearny …when mike crossed the kearny brown reds on the hatch birds they were awsome as any ever bred til this day…sanford wanted to breed em back to the yellow legged side but mike insisted on breedin them one more time to the brown red side and produced them to fight.fight they did and won some derbies against everyone at that time,he wanted to breed a cock of his fathers breeding which was the kerany whitehackle to the sanford ,kerany,kerany breedings- from this breeding he had 17 black birds with white specs in them and over 40 brownred lookin birds,,he then crossed these back on the brown reds-having the kearny white hackle in them and hatch blood they came all dark fowl with green leggs-mike give lun glimore 6 hens and one dark red cock to breed over them=this was the origination of the gilmore hatch fowl -and the ben ford fowl-these birds was given and sold to gilmore from mr hatch and mike kearny…it did kearny mike s fathers blood -mike kearny sr white hackle blood in them and still till this day they will come spangle or dark …!the next breeding that was the brown red and kearny out and out became the 42 hatch that jd perry dominated with-same fowl from same people except did not have the kearny white hackle in them…but mostly yellow leg ,and the black leggs made em all come od green legged…….believe it or not…..i knew collonel givens for over 40 years and he got his from lun gilmore in the early 40s and also got some of mike kearny jrs white hackles that was dark red and spangled…..and fought the kearny white hackle crosses at sunset and all over north alabama…..collenol givens and jimmy east were the handlers for john ovilan fowler from huntsville ala.when john fowler died jimmy kept has hatch birds and collenol givens kept the white hackles…..so the gilmores are 1/4 kearny whirte hackle-1/4 hatch- 1/2 brown red bred back to the 1/2 hatch 1/2 brown red and kept that way until he passed on- – – – still til this day all gilmores will throw a spangle every other year or so….depends on how there bred and where ya got them- – – so there is your facts- believe it or not- – – but if ya didnt get em from gilmore there yours MR KELSO* MADIGAN*LAW*KEARNY*MORGAN* O ‘CONNOR….there your birds- heres ya sign…….!
    before i forget…the mike kearny brown reds and the sanford duryeas crossed were very good fowl and after they bred em back makin the 42s the breeding back to the p combed hatch side was the ones they gave Ted McClain, and Thodore Mc Lean two seperate men…and the ones that were 3/4 hatch-duryeas and 1/4 kearny were the left nose hatch of the late Sweater Mc Guiness….Marvin anderson was in ww! with sanford hatch and become friensds in 1910 were they fought in north alabama in long heel mains which was all new to the short heelers….marvin s father had the Kelcy patts from ireland and sanford hatch fell in love with the long heel roosters….sanford gave birds to marvin untill his death,and marvin gave the patties to sanford upon any request of these men….and they whipped all round head fowl those days. which was dominating the early years….judge lacy was makin a statement at this time and was winning more than average in alabama and at the agusta tounaments…..the Kelcy Pattswere brought from ireland by marvins grandfather well before the civil war……no one knew there originality…. strait combed,lemon hackled,bigg thighs and wide backs and spangles came dark red with lemon around the bottom of the shaw…….the photographs are all black n white…..marvin lost them over the years do to hawks and eagles in the mountain areas of north east alabama….he owned the ranburne pit which was shut down in 73 due to his health………..
    Lun Gilmore was the insperation of establishing the hatch name in the south,tTed mclain routed the hatch name when he was dominating with the hatch fowl,sweater came famous in the mid section of the country,jd perry and blondy roland,harold brown ,ben ford,frank steel ,and curtis blacwell made the hatch name in the south east……the fowl that gilmore aquired were theone that won the orlando tiurnament from mr hatch and would have payed any price for those fowl…and was a very sharp eyed man that could recognise an ace cock….that made him a true breeder and respected in the gamecock fraternity…sanford hatch told marvin anderson that lun had the best fowl of the dark breedings anywhere and he would do well with them….at that time lun whipped leiper in a fight that lasted 6 hrs and 10 min…..both men strived on deep game fowl..as did all long heel men of the south at the turn of the century untill there deaths……


    Ed Garrand Hatch

    The Feathered Warrior, July 1999
    by Carl Saia aka “The Breeder”
    This family is known by many other names, such as Biloxi Hatch, Spangle Hatch, Speck Hatch, Little Ed’s, and originally they were called McLeans, by some, including me.
    This family, according to Ed, traced back to a spangle McLean Hatch, that was bred and fought by Harold Brown at the old Biloxi Pit. Harold fought this cock, a three time winner, the cock was beaten and looked to be dead. So Harold threw him on the dead pile. Later on Ed walked by, saw the cock was still living, picked him up, took him to the cock house, gave him penicillin tablet. Next morning, the cock could not stand, but he would show against another cock. That evening the cock was standing and trying to crow, so Ed took him home.
    At this time, most of the Garrard fowl were based on Harold’s Red Fox Fowl. I do know Ed bred this cock to a Morgan Whitehackle hen that he got from Frank Hooks. I had a half Kelso, half Judge Lacy hen that Walter Kelso sent to my partner David Harding for the use of one of our Judge Lacy brood cock on three separate occasions (cock always was returned). Ed saw this old hen, and decided he wanted to breed the spangle Biloxi cock to this hen. The progeny produced some excellent pit fowl, and was almost set as a family. Later on Ed called me to come over and see a 22 time pit winner he had borrowed from that “great Hawaiian cocker Mr. Lee”. This cock Ed called an Aseel, I believe he was an Aseel cross, according to his feathers. Ed asked me to pick out some hens to mate to this cock as he had to return him to Mr. Lee. I selected several hens, (I believe 4) that were out of the Biloxi cock, and put them in that Aseel’s pen. After about a week or so, Ed started saving eggs when he was certain all the hens were fertile to the Aseel cross cock. Ed had me set the eggs of this cross and I hatched off some 30 odd chicks. Ed told me to keep a few and give him the rest, that gave me some of the fowl, I was now calling them Biloxi, along with Ed.
    In 1970 Col. Victor Lee Chun visited Ed’s home, it was there I met Mr. Lee’s grandson, one very fine gentleman. Several years ago, Col. Chun visited my home, and told me that the Aseel cock only received one cut in all of his fights and that he had the honor of sewing up that great cock after he had won his 22nd fight, and then was retired.
    The color of the Garrard fowl can be varied from one breeder to another. Some can be straight comb, others look like dark leg Roundheads. The cocks will stand out in any group, as they are tall, long legged fowl. Colors of this family can range for cock, from black breasted reds, some of these have white specks in the breast, and on other parts of the body. Most of the leg color is green or dark legged, lots of them look like long legged Lacy Roundheads. The hens have many color variations from dark spangle to a wheaten color, with green or dark legs and a Roundhead type of body.


    Blueface Hatch

    By: J.D Perry
    Lum Gilmore got a cock from Ted McClean it was a small stationed cock ran around Gilmore place for some time and there where no hens with him. He was said to be a hard hitter, and when cockers stooped by they sparred him to show how hard he could hit. When sparred or exerted in any way he turned blue in the face, hence the name blue face. Sweater McGinins was around Gilemore`s place at Bay City, TX at the time, he finally brought over one of his Madigin regular grey hens as company for the cock. Some stags and pullets were raised from that mating. Sometime before that two hens where stolen from Hatch on Long Island and given to Sweater. And not long after that Sweater was inducted into the service. He put the two hatch hens with E.W. Law to keep for him until he returned, when he got out, he immediately got in touch with Law to get the hens.Law told him one had died ,but he sent Sweater the other one. One of the 1/2 grey 1/2 blue face cock was bread to the stolen Hatch hen and the progeny of that mating where known as the blue face fowl.
    The following is told by Harry Parr whom Ted McLean gave all of his fowl.
    In the spring of 1949, Ted Mclean had two beautifully bred “straight” (being McLean Hatch) stags, one of which he wanted to breed. Tehy were full brothers, well made, green legged, weighted about 4:10, and you could not have told them apart except one was a roundhead. His wing clip was 40-90; the square comb, 48-96. Ted decided to heel them up and fight them which they did in his pti in the barn. Teh square comb proved to be the better fighter and cutter, and when he blinded the roundhead, Ted said he had seen enough to cut the head off the roundhead. Well Harry had handled the roundhead and when he was on his hands he could tell all the roundhead wanted to do was get at the other stag. After being pitted, he would search and as soon as contact was made, explode. so Harry said he would take him home and see what he could do. After a couple of weeks he regained the sight of one eye and was soon back in good health. He bred this stag two years and one day Ted asked Harry if he would mind sending him to Lun Gilmore. Lun wanted a cock and at the time, Ted did not have a really good one to spare. Harry shipped the cock and later learned that Lun and Pete Frost bred him to a hen that TEd had previously given to Pete. Teh hen was 47-65, by Green Leg cock number 2, the “straight” stuff out of hen number 81 which was a Morgan Whitehackle from Heinie Mathesius (none of the “straight” stuff on the hen side ever got out) Prior to this Ted had given Pete Frost, Green Leg cock number 53 which became the sire of the “Frost Cherries” They had also bred this cock to hen 47-65 and sent Harry and TEd a stag from that mating, which was called , after Lun, the “Alligator Cock” Sweater McGinnis was involved in their fighting activities at this time, and it was from these three birds taht the Blueface emerged. (Hen 47-65, Cock 53, Cock 48-90) The next time Harry saw Sweater was January 1958 in Orlando. He told Harry, these “Blue Face” were the gamest chickens he had ever seen and that he kept the seed stock pure just make battle crosses. He asked Harry if he would let him have another cock and Harry snet him cock 57-340 (Harry was fortunate to get this cock back after Sweaters death thanks to Willis Holking) He also told Harry not to worry, that he didn’t let the “straight” one go but they all fought under the name of “Blue Face” At the time, his favorite were one quarter Blue fce, one quarter Regular Grey and one half Leiper, bred in various cmobinations. Like all of them, Willis experimented wiht many crosses and blend in an effort to produce superior battle cocks but recognized the value of keeping the seed stock pure.
    Here’s an article by Art Hefner written on the April issue of the Gamecock 1985.
    “I have read several articals about the BLUEFACE containing CHET blood.
    About 1956 or 1957 I was visiting at Pineville Farms with Big Red Sweater McGinnis and naturally, we were only talking chickens. On this particular day Big Red Sweater was in a wonderful mood. On asking why he was so jolly, he told me he got one of his pure Blueface cocks off a walk, of which they had walks by the hundreds. this particular Blueface weighed slightly over 4-08 pound. Sweater was elated. This was the biggest, pure Blueface he had raised in years. So you see, they were intensely inbreed.
    I asked him if the cocks weren’t any larger, how small were the pure hens? He got a bucket of feed an called the chickens up. He showed me two hens and told me they were the purest and only two of the pure. And if they had showed up on my yard unknowingly, I would have killed them, never expecting to see anything like them as Blueface. They may have weighed 2 or 2 1/2 pounds. And behold! they were black with brown spots on their breast. Like a Seabright Bantam, with legs a couple of inches long. He never told me what kind of black blood was in them, but by their color, they were heavy in some kind. Ever what kind, they were the hardest hitting cocks I’ve ever seen.
    Nearly ever successful cockfighter and breeder today has some of this blood. But most have only a small amount. As to the pure, there was precious few let out, (Including me). When breeders have “pure” Blueface cocks that go 6 pounds, or even 5 pounds, they can do more with them than the old master breeder, himself, could do. Later I’ll tell more about this.
    This article was not written to create any controversy. Just telling you the facts as it was told to me by one of the GREATEST BREEDERS and cockfighters of our times. I was proud and honored to know this man personally. SO BE IT.


    Sandy Hatch

    By E. T. Piper
    Mr. E. S. Hatch of long island, new York, passed a way sometime in April, we know none of the details, except that he died suddenly, supposedly from a heart attack. He was very close to 80 years of age, looked less than 70,
    While Mr. hatch has been known in gamefowl circles in the north ending neighborhood of 50 years, it is only in recent years that he has become, more or less, nationally known as a breeder, this is, due to his condition with the long island entry at Florida tournaments ,and also to the fact that he is fowl have been become commercialized, to a considerable extent, in the past years,prior to that time, it was considers something of a accomplishmentto get a hold of a Hatch cock, close free and an associate for about the only was able to get to the first base,
    A great many different mean have worked for Mr. Hatch as feeders and or fowl caretakers. It was in the very early 30s that Heinie Mathesius went with him. Heating various fowl with him from New Jersey to the hatch estate, from that come on more experimenting and crossing took place there, while he may be our imagination is seem to us that Mr. hatch from that time until his death took less interest in his fowl than formerly, he was very fond of Heinie, he said he did more work than three average mean in was careful and consistent about everything, and an excellent feeder, still it seemed to us Mr. Hatch did not guard them so carefully from then on or display the same interest in him that he had,
    Some claims the Hatch fowl, with inffusions and crosses of the Mathesius fowl, were much improved while many others denied, certainly they work changed and changed a lot after he took over.
    The first we saw of these were back about 20 years ago at Troy, New York, we sawVM at the same place in mains and tournaments a good many times after that,from the end up to about 1932 or so .they were mostly very stout powerful built dark Red with yellow Legs, both stright and peacomb and a whallop like a trip hammer, many of them were low head, dumb and clumsy, but, win or lose ,the next year and next they would look the same and fight the same , many good men who saw them would give an eye tooth to get one,and did not come close, in nearly every main, he would show from 1 to 2 or three, mostly real dark gray and with green legs and pea comb, it anything, they were poorer fighters than the others, but nothing gamer ever we have to. You had to kill one to beat them,or he would count you out. These are what are known now at Hatch greenlegs.
    We may to Mr. Hatch at the claymore tournament a year ago, he told a then that the foundation of his fowl were his green legs, which he got from Jim Cassidy of Huntington, long island, New York, many years ago, and some black Red and he got from the famous Harry Genet of somewhere around in New York, many years ago, he had some fowl that became famous, we had heard of the Genet pyles for years but never heard of the black reds until Mr. Hatch mentioned them.
    Mr. Hatch got a lot of fowl from Cassidy over a considerable length of time, yards, trios, cocks, etc. he did not know just what they were, but they were said to be Kearney fowl. Casey was one of the Kearney clique around New York for many years.


    Pink Hatch

    by L. C. Guneau
    This is written in reply to the many requests for a true and authentic history of the modern strain of pit game fowl known as Pink Hatch. Before going into further details let me say this; neither I or this strain of fowl need publicity. I have never raised enough of them to supply the demand and still have enough of them left for my own use. In fact I could sell all of them I care to raise without a single line of advertising in any magazine.
    As to their orgin I think it best at least more interesting, to describe some of the fowl that went into their make-up. I could just say they are the result of a Dan Tracy Pyle/Long Island Roundhead cross, but it is not that simple, for the Long Island Roundheads are the net result of considerable crossing and blending, also the Tracys carry a wee bit of outside blood. So, to just say they are the result of a simple cross does not really tell the full story. Unfortunately I am unable to give as much information on the history of the Tracy Irsih Pyles as I can on the Long Island Roundheads, altho I have made several trips to Ireland in an effort ot run down as much information as possible on these wonderful and beautiful fowl. The Tracys are about the 5th or 6th strain of Pyle colored chickens I have tried crossing on Roundheads in the past half century. Briefly I crossed my good Allen Roundheads on Travelers and got dunghills, I crossed them on Blue Boones and got dunghills, I also crossed them on Lundy Wild Cat Blues and got good battle cocks in long heels. Don’t know what they would have done in short heels as I was fighting in long heels at the time, as most of the above experimenting goes back almost fifty years.
    As the years went by I added new blood to my Allens by way of Cowan’s Alabama Roundheads, and a shot of the Big Four Roundheads which were at one time fought extensively along the Ohio River in KY, WV, OH and points west. But I always kept my Allens basically Allen in looks and performance for I liked their smart heads-up style of fighting and their deadly cutting.
    After coming to New York I added one quarter Sandy Hatch, set them at that stage and have fought them in both long and short heels ever since. So now it comes out that the Pink Hatch have exactly one eighth Sandy Hatch in them, which obviously comes thru the Long Island Roundhead side. One can see at a glance that the little Tacy cock is much smaller, also slimmer in his body and lower stationed, while the Pink Hatch is larger, taller, more robust in his body and a little more red in his coloring. Some of the pure Tracys come almost pure white, but the Pinks invariably have deeper colors. I even get a red once in awhile, and each season I get two or three grays, but will explain later about the grays.
    The original Amesbury Gray cock, a 17 time winner, whose blood was infused inot the Dan Tracy Pyles when Frank Welsh, Dave’s uncle, lost every Dan Tracy he had except one pullet. After the original cross he bred the stags back to the old hen for about nine years, each year cutting down the outside blood by one-half until (genetically) there was something on the order of one-five hundreds-and twelofth part Amesbury Gray in the pure Dan Tracys.
    The Gray color rarely shows up in the pure Tracys, but will crop out once in a while when new blood is infused. I have noticed I get more grays from the Long Island Roundhead crosses than any other. One thing is very evident, the grays are very well built, and are power cocks, and I can see no difference in their ability. If the Mendell law is correct, when a color or any other characteristic goes recessive it will remain dormant but not extinct, and will crop up occasionally and infinitum or endlessly that part of the theory I can understand, for it is happening every year right in front of my eyes, but what I don’t understand is why the recessive comes out more often in one strain or cross than another. Insofar as I know there has never been a drop of gray blood put into the Allens or Cowans, or Big Fours; or hatch either for that matter, notwithstanding some of the writers who have had the Hatch coming every color of the rainbow.
    The Amesbury Grays were a local strain, bred and fought around Amesbury, Mass. and I understand they were blend of Billy Anderson Tassel, Arch Ruport’s Kearney and perhaps other bloddlines of which I am not aware. One reason I bring up the background of the Amesbury Grays is that they had a tassel, which the Tracys inherited, and which gradually dissapeared, and now they are always smooth heads, but the gray color still crops up. Perhaps some of our geneticists can explain why the tassel, which was also recessive finally dissapeared but the gray color never did? But, whatever their makeup, these Amesbury Grays sure must have been some chicken. Dave Taylor, who had the original Amesbury Gray cock a 17x winner, told me that the cock won nine fights as a stag and eight as a cock and was never beaten in the pit. He said his uncle Frank Welsh told him that he never regretted putting the Gray blood into his Dan Tracys, for it sure did help bring them back, as he was about finished with only one hen left after a dog raid on his yards. But that is only one chapter of the Dan Tracy Pyle story. This strain of game fowl have been bred as a family and fairly true to color and type for at least 250 years, maybe longer. During that time they have fought, and been known as champions in many countries, and have been known by several different names. Dan Tracy is merely the name they go under in America. In Ireland they were known as Galway Pyles and several others of which I am unaware. King Charles of England was their originator, and it was he who took them to Ireland. Today nearly every cocker in Ireland has Pyles, no doubt all descendants of this one strain. I saw some real good ones fight over there, but the real good ones had been beefed up with infusions of other good Irish strains. It seems the Kearney infused Pyle blood into his Brown Red Whitehackles and it still shows up occasionally. I recently fought a pure Mike Kearney in the Eastern Pit few weeks after he had fought in Alaska in long heels, and he has several pure white feathers in his breast. Some of these pure Mike Kearneys come a light buckskin tan, almost the same as Pyle color. I wish I could tell you more about the Dan Tracy Pyle side of my Pink Hatch, but I do not wish to pose as an expert where I know so little. Of one thing I am sure, there is not another strain on this earth like them, and altho they are not strong enough in their purity to be good pit cocks against the modern power blends, I hope to always have some of them around, for they are the proudest and most likable fowl I have ever owned, and for blending or infusing into a stronger strain they are pure gold. I have never offered any of the pure Dan Tracys for sale and don’t intend to. Most people today want a big, strong, aggressive cock that will tear right in there and fight like a tiger, and they don’t have time or patience enough to understand or appreciate these little Pyles cocks from our of the past.
    It would make me feel real bad to know they were in the hands of the wrong person and were being treated badly. Some twenty odd years ago I got a pair of Dr. Robinson Pyles from Ed Devonald of New Jersey. The cock was a small peahead, or low comb Pyle cock, well set up, but low stationed. The hen was a big robust hen that was the toughest hen I ever owned. She was a straight comb with dark legs. I infused this Dr. Robinson Pyle blood into some of my Long Island Roundheads and got good pit cocks, and they were desperately game, in fact too game for their own good as they would kill each other off while still very young, which made them very hard to raise. The stags would start fighting as soon as they could stand up, and keep it up until trimming time at which stage there would not be too many good ones left. I fought several of the Dr. Robinson Pyle/Long Island Roundheads cocks in long heels down along the Ohio river and at Cobert Riggsby’s pit in Catlettsburg, KY, and along the Kanawha river during the 2nd World War when I went down to Charleston, WV to take over the foremanship of the spray paint assembly in the Naval Ordinance plant where the 11:75 rockets were in production. These Pyle/R.H. proved very good in long heels and I fought them as long as I was down there. After the war I came back to New York and picked up my business here, which had been run for me by a friend. When I brought my chickens back to New York I brought back a few of the Pyle/R.H. crosses and kept them around for a good many years. But they were so hard to raise I had just about ran out on them when Bob McGarrity of Atlantic City, N.J. gave me a pair of the pure Dan Tracys which he had gotten from Frank Welsh some time previously, before Frank Welsh passed away. This would be about the 5th or 6th strain of Pyle fowl I had tried crossing on my Roundheads over a period of a half century. I don’t know why I kept trying, unless I had had partial success with the Wild Cat Blue Roundhead cross, and with the Dr. Robinson Roundhead cross, aside from the fact that a Pyle chicken always fascinated me. Anyway, I sent the pair of Dan Tracy Pyles up to Carl Fauske of Ill. who had purchased Long Island Roundheads from me several years ago, and told him to cross Pyles on the Long Island Roundheads for me. He did, and that was the beginning of the Pink Hatch. The name Pink hatch started as a joke, but the name has stuck, and it is no joke, any more. I have tried different percentage infusions of these two strains, but have found the original cross was the best, and that is the way I have set the strain, and have bred and fought them that way for several years. They now come very uniform as to size and shape and ability. As stated before I get a very few off-colored ones, but I never offer for sale one of the grays, or the occasional reds. I fight them myself for a customer might not understand. As to the exact bloodlines of the Pink Hatch it would figure out about as follows: one-half Long Island Roundhead, which strain carries one-quarter Sandy Hatch. One-half Dan Tracy Pyle, which carries one-five hundredth or so of Amesbury Gray, which said Dan Tracy Pyle are about as pure as any strain you will find today. If you think this hot air, just sit down and figure out how much Amesbury Gray blood will remain after 9 years of continuous line breeding back to the old hen, or figure as some breeders are inclined to do, the hen will throw ninety percent of the blood of the offspring, which would reduce the percent of Gray blood down to astronomical figures. But the gray stag or two still coming along each season. This experience should prove interesting to the young chap who may think he can breed cold blood out of a strain of pit game fowl. In fact, it would be more difficult to breed out the dunkie blood than it is to breed out the Amesbury Gray! Being a game family will do no harm to another game family, but the cold blood will utterly destroy them.
    I will not go into a long windy yarn about how great the Pink Hatch are, but will say only that they are now proving themselves all over the world in all kinds of weapons. One of their more likable traits is their good temper. They are always happy, easy to work with, and very intelligent. Just the opposite of the Dr. Robinson Pyle cross. The latter proved mean and hard to handle from the day they were brought in and trimmed, adn they never seemed to get over it, no matter how patient and gentle I was with them. This trait I could never understand, for the pure Dr. Robinson Pyle were not nasty to handle, and we all know how good natured and intelligent a well bred Roundhead is. So there is another riddle for the geneticists to chew on. I have been unable to come up with the answer, and the Lord knows I have tried, for I always had a burning desire to have a strain of Pyles that I could depend on, and that could win. And so, after a half century of trying I have come up with just about what I have been lookng for. I am holding my Pink Hatch at exactly the proportions described above and I can see no need for any change in the forseeable future. They come large and robust, strong and well set up, some of them weigh over six pounds, but most are in the good derby range.
    This my friends is the best I can give you on the history of the Pink hatch, and I hope it may have proved interesting to you. After so many requests, and so much interest being shown I think you are entitled to it, so I have done my best.


    Origin of the McLean Hatch
    By Harry Parr, November 1977
    Interest in the breeding of game fowl strains has always run high even though the knowledge thereof seldom has any practical application. I have been asked many times to set forth the breeding of the Mclean Hatch and their offshoot, the Blue Face family. This I have done briefly in letters and countless times orally. It is amazing how twisted these accounts become. So, since this subject appears still to hold the interest of many, I have decided to write down the facts for one and all. Although Ted Mclean has been out of the “chicken business” since December of 1954 at which time he gave me all his fowl, he is still very much with us. I mention this only because I have seen too many “histories” come out when it is too late for the facts to be verified by the principles involved. Further, the following is being written with my notes and breeding records before me and this paper will be limited to first hand information. Finally, lest anyone think there is an ulterior motive involved, my chickens are my hobby. I keep only enough for my purposes and have never, nor do I ever contemplate selling them.
    In the early thirties, Mr. E.S. Hatch and Mr. E.T. McLean were on the floor of the stock exchange. That Mr. Hatch gave Ted McLean fowl is the testimony enough of their friendship, as it is well known that Mr. Hatch did not let many go. At the time, Mr. Hatch’s fowl consisted of four basic bloodlines. These were the Kearney fowl made up of the two strains Mike Kearny brought from Ireland, namely (1) the “beasy” Breasted Light Reds (Whitehackles) and (2) the Brown Breasted Reds, plus (3) the Herman Duryea fowl (commonly called Boston Roundheads) which he added when he worked for Mr. Duryea. With these bloodlines Mr. Hatch incorporated (4) the green leg Thomson (Jim Thomson) fowl. I might say here that from then till now, the strain made up of these four bloodlines is what Ted and I call the “straight stuff”.
    In those days virtually all the fighting in the North East was done in inch and a quarter, heavy, slow heels, which is not surprising considering the cockers prime requisite, was gameness. It followed the toughness and power was high priorities and the Hatch fowl had all these in abundance. While they surely did not compile a great winning record, they were admired by name for these attributes. Fortunately, Ted McLean kept this set of priorities or the “straight stuff’ would have long since gone by the boards. For in addition to these attributes, the McLean Hatch are poor cutters, low headed dumb fighters, that usually take two or three shots before unleashing one of their patented hay makers. Obviously as the heels got faster their ability to win lessened, so they are useless now if fought pure. Their value then, is only as an ingredient to produce battle cocks.
    Ted McLean bought “Gamecock Farm” in Maryland and built one of the best all around chicken plants I have ever seen. He gave me a trio of his Hatch fowl in 1948 and shortly thereafter I bought a farm within a short distance from his. I suppose I was at Gamecock Farm a couple of times a week and everyday during fighting season, because we fought a heavy schedule and chickens were almost always in the cock house for conditioning. At least one experimental cross was tried each year and many produced superior battle cocks, but as soon as one quit, all chickens containing that blood, came under the axe. I saw an awful lot of chickens killed and when he retired from the game in 1954 and only the “straight stuff” remained. All of these fowl were given to me.


    J.D. Perry Hatch

    The cocking world will be shocked and saddened by the sudden death of J.D. Perry of Muskogee, Oklahoma, on Friday morning, January 11. On his way to work at a clothing factory in Muskogee, owned by his sister, during a cold spell, he slipped on the ice, fell, and hit his head on a steel beam lying beside the walk. He got up, went in the factory, and was telling some of his fellow workers about his fall when he began to shake. He was taken to the hospital but was dead on arrival due to concussion of the brain.
    “J.D.,” as he was generally known in the cocking world, had for about 15 or 20 years of his life a colorful career as a cocker. We have none of the details concerning his death or funeral, and what we write is from what we knew of him for the past 20 years. We believe he was born in Oklahoma and started his cocking career in that state. Somewhere along in the 1940’s, he went to work for C.C. Cooke of Oklahoma City. Shortly after that, Cooke bought the Lawridge Plantation at Miccosukee, Florida from E.W. Law, one of the best
    known cockers in the world.
    According to the story told to this writer by Cooke, here is what happened. Law had been after Cooke when he came to Florida for the tournaments to buy his plantation for three of four years. Finally Cooke made him an offer of a certain amount ($50,000 as I recall), saying he would give that for the place and everything in and on it, just as it stood. Law accepted his offer and the deal was closed. Shortly after the deal was closed, the place transferred to Cooke, Law said, “Now, just as soon as I can find a place, I will come and get the chickens.” “What chickens?” asked Cooke. “Why, my chickens,” said Law. “You have no chickens. I bought your place with everything in and on it, and the chickens are mine,” said Cooke. From that point on, Law and Cooke were at swords points and did nothing but quarrel. Cooke had Perry come down to look after things for him, including the chickens.
    Eventually, they settled things up and Law moved away taking with him, as I recall him telling me, 29 chickens. Cooke got all the rest, hundreds of them. How it was settled as to how many chickens Law was to keep, I don’t recall (although I was told at the time), but this is the way they were divdied. Perry had access to all of Law’s breeding records, and by the time the split came he knew as much about the Law chickens as Law did. Cooke purchased from Henie Mathesius, for $2,000 approximately, 125 Hatch cocks and stags, and 125 hens and pullets. These were shipped to the plantation in Florida. So, when it came time to divide up the chickens I suppose these were in the deal, too, but wether Law took any of the Hatch fowl I don’t know. At any rate, J.D. represented Cooke, and he and Law would come to a yard of chickens (let’s say there was a cock and four hens). First one took his choice of individuals in the pen and then the other. For instance, Law might say, “I will take the cock,” and J.D. would say, “I’ll take this hen.” They alternated first choice from yard to yard until Law had his 29 chickens and Cooke got the rest. Then all the chickens were shipped back to Oklahoma to Cooke’s yard.
    At the time this split occurred, I think it safe to say that E.W. Law had in his possession more good families of game fowl than any man on earth had at the time, or ever had. There were Clippers made by Law from a Pine Albany and Claret cross, there were straight Albanys, there were Pine Albanys, Clarets, Regular Greys, Perfection Greys, and literally dozens of other families and crosses accumulated by Law up to that time. 98% of all these families, of course, were shipped back to Oklahoma by Perry for Cooke. And, of course, Perry came home to take charge of the Cooke layout.
    The late Bobby Manziel teamed up with Cooke. With Perry breeding the fowl and feeding them for fighting, they formed what might be termed one of the most formidable cocking combines of all time, certainly of this generation. For the next several years, they were practically unbeatable using practically all Cooke fowl for their fighting. In 1946 or 1947, they won a main against Sam Head and Co. at Ruleville, Miss., for ten thousand a side in a clear cut and decisive manner using what were said to have been the first cross of Claret and Hatch. I thought at that time, and still believe, the main showed by Perry were the best long heel cocks I have ever seen.
    At that time, Orlando held their annual meet, St. Augustine, Pass Christian, Waco, and other large pits were in operation and it was practically a fifty-fifty bet that Perry would “be in the money” or he would win outright. Their winning record for several yearswas phenominal, and probably never will be equalled by any cocker or combination of cockers for that class of fighting, derbies and tournaments. But, as all things must, it ended eventually when Perry left to go to work for the late Mr. Halff of Leesburg, Texas. Perry was replaced by Cooke with a half-dozen different chicken men at various times, but they got nowhere. After a few years of this, Cooke closed up shop and sold his place and chickens.
    From then on, Perry and his chicken operations presented a mystery no noe has ever figured out with any degree of accuracy. Cooke and Perry were on friendly terms even after Perry left to go to work for Halff. While no one ever told me this, I am positive Perry could have had, free of charge, from Cooke, either during the time he worked for him or after he left, any chickens Cooke owned. And, it’s a certainty Perry did have some of the same bloodlines later on. Cooke was always generous with his chickens, and he liked J.D. So, I am sure he would have given him, and no doubt did, anything he asked for. Even if that were not so, Perry had for several years supervised the shipping of hundreds of fowl sold by Cooke all over the U.S.A., and I don’t know a man who got any Cooke fowl who wouldn’t have been glad to give Perry any that he might have asked for. But, almost from the day he left Cooke, Perry never did any good in the chicken game. Halff was worth millions and spent it like water. He had a fabulous layout and the best chickens money and friendship could obtain. I don’t recall how long Perry was with Halff before Halff died, but it must have been a couple of years. Their success was just mediocre, no better than the average chicken man who fight in the big shows. After Halff died, Perry went with Flato, another millionaire from Corpus Christi, Texas. Flato had previously built a ten acre chicken layout at Robstown, Texas that cost him $64,000. Perry lived on the place and was in complete charge of everything; the breeding, rearing, feeding, selection, etc. Money was no object. He could have anything he wanted. I feel reasonably sure had Perry told Flato of some fowl he was sure he could have done some winning with but the cost would be $50,000, Flato would have told him to go ahead and buy them. Flato wasn’t in the game for money, all he wanted was to do some winning. Again, they did very little, no better than average. After about three years of this, Flato quit the game. With the passing of Bobby Manziel, Mr. Halff, Dick Kleberg, and Flato quitting the game, the men who could hire a chicken man of Perry’s type were few and far between.
    Flato owned some sort of stove factory in Mississippi, and he told Perry to go over and see if there was any job in the factory he would like to have. If there was, it was his. There was nothing there he wanted, so for the next year or so Perry did nothing of importance.
    Eventually, he went to work for his sister at Muskogee. As I understood it, Perry, a Mr. Daniels, and a Dr. Schumun had a small chicken plant outside of Muskogee, and they did some fighting but not too much. Last year, Perry fed the Anderson entry for Oaklawn and tied for second money with an 8-4 score, just one fight behind the winner.
    It can truthfully be said the J.D. Perry was a credit to the game, clean-cut, honest and respected by all who knew him. No one questioned the fact he was a first-class feeder, breeder, and all-around game chicken man. He leaves, I believe, a wife andf two children. May he rest in peace.

    Walton Hatch

    By H. Duff
    Henry Wortham was working for Jack Walton at the time Jack decided to sell out. Henry knew Manuel Massey who was feeding for Paul Harvey, a professional wager from Odessa, Texas. Henery asked Manuel to form a plan with him in order to get Paul to buy the fowl. Manuel talked Paul into purchasing 12 cocks from Jack. Henry tied pieces of string on the cages of 12 double barrel aces. When Paul and Manuel selected the 12 cocks, Manuel picked only the ones with strings on the cages that Henry planted. This was unknown to both Jack Walton and Paul Harvey. Aftr all 12 cocks were selectd by Manuel, Jack told Paul that he didn’t know about Manuel’s feeding ability but he selected the 12 best cocks he owned, besides the brood cocks!
    Manuel Massey got the cocks ready for the sunset tournament. They won easily. Paul Harvey and Manuel won several other big tournaments shortly threreafter. This made Paul and Massey the top cock fighter that year. This all happened in the early 1952. The wins convinced Paul to purchase the rest of Jack Walton’s fowl. Paul paid Jack the sum of $20,000.
    Paul Harvey hired professional union carpenters to build pens for the fowl. Carpenters worked around the clock getting the pens on Paul’s estate ready. When the pens were completed, Paul and Massey drove to Dallas with boxes for the cocks and u-haul trailors for the hens and little ones. During this time Henery was selling to others some good Walton Hatch to others unknown to Paul. I had heard that some of these cockfighters were Clarence Stewart, Ray Hoskins, Richard Bates, and the Everett brothers of Hood County Red fame. Harold Wells ended up with the “Bone Crusher” cock which was one of the original 12 cocks. Harold started a family of Bone Crushers that became a major force at the Jal N.M. pit ran by Tommy Booth. Over a period of 20 to 30 years Paul Harvey sold many Walton Hatch. At the time he decided to sell all the Walton fowl. Bill Patterson bought the best of what he had left. Bill still raises and fights the Walton Hatch fowl. The Walton Hatch, if inbred over a long period will come spangle with pearl colored legs, red eyes, and large bones. Their temperament is nasty.
    The Walton fowl will put gameness and hitting power into any breed. Also they will add bone size if your breed is coming small.
    To finish the story, Paul Harvey bought the Percy Flowers blue face bloodline and continued to win derbies until his death. Bill Lisenbee purchased the remaining Blueface bloodline fowl at Paul’s death. If you ever owned a Walton Hatch you will never stop breeding a few because of their gameness and tremendous power.
    If you have any further questions about this rare breed of Hatch, contact me (NOT The Game Fowl Connection but the author H. Duff). I am truly glad that I was part of the Jack Walton fowl history.


    Doc Robinson Hatch
    Now, I will first start out by saying I never had the chance to meet with the man being born in a time too late. But one of my main curiosities even as a young boy has always been the history of gamefowl and other fowl, and my father was the main source of history regarding many of the local strains in the great states of Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama. From the bit I have gathered, The Doc Robinson Hatch originated from the Stewart Yellow Legged Hatch blood, created by Clarence Stewart from the “Bonecrusher” Jack Walton Hatch.
    The information from my father speaking from personal experience and information passed to him from Donnie Roberts who showed under the Pine Burr entry in many derbies along side Doc Robinson and Peck Brown, is that Doc was always looking for new hatch birds to improve his lines. Whenever Doc saw a bird in the pit that he liked, and thought could improve his he would buy it and take it home, and my father said upon stepping into Doc’s yard that he had two different hatches. The light side and dark side, separated on each side of the yard and the birds looked completely different. The dark side were more uniform with a dark mahogany color, green and blue legs, and had a straight comb with the occasional lemon hackle around the bottom of the hackle. The light side were very light lemon hackled birds with yellow legs and a pea comb. However they also could have green, slate, blue, spotted, or even green on one half and yellow on the other legs. They were Doc’s primary power chickens, I was told a story of a man named Jerry who conditioned a manfighter cock, and in doing so the cock flew up and hit him in the head knocking him out for two hours. And Doc regularly crossed these two from my understanding.
    And within those were individual strains. There were many lines, the main one I remember is the Red-Bandeds and the information my father told me regarding the Red-bandeds is that the Red-bandeds received their name due to descending from a hen with a red leg band, Doc Robinson took five cocks out of her and showed them at Sunset winning every fight. And another strain, though from Donnie Roberts (which were the Red-Bandeds) is The Rag hatch blood. Their name came from how they looked as chicks, they were always raggedy with poor feathering and a ugly coloration until they grew up into the dark mahogany colored fowl.
    On more than one occasion, my father told me stories of a Doc Hatch cock owned by Donnie Roberts that one year molted and developed a few white specks in his breast. The next year he got more spots, and every year he gained more until he was almost solid white. Other people who have inbred their Docs have also found that they will occasionally throw a spangle. And my father also mentioned that he himself who received birds from Donnie (who got them from Doc) as well as a friend of his who received Donnie’s birds have had the Docs molt out into hennies on more than one occasion. So I would say this could be a very good reason for why many peoples Doc’s can range from small station to tall station, 4lbs 12oz to 6.5lbs and come both pea and straight comb, light, dark, even the people who claim to contain the same blood originally from Doc himself without anything added! And if anything I would say it goes to show even further that the old breeders were less concerned with color, purity, and uniformity like today’s breeders and more concerned with their gameness and fighting ability; making one of the greatest hatch strains to this day.
    I know there is a lot of controversy behind this strain, as many believe they have the Ray Hoskin’s blood (and based upon this, they very well may have a touch) while others do not. And people can choose to believe what I have said or not, but when my father was friends with both Peck and Donnie (who inherited Doc’s birds after his death to my understanding) receiving birds from both and seeing them first hand in days-gone-by and I meeting Peck myself; I choose to believe it.

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  12. #8
    Senior Member grey/dom's Avatar
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    Re: What makes a hatch?

    If we mate all this so called hatches? What we got?
    if we mate a called pure hatch to a called brown red. What u think we got? Or to a called pire whitehackle.

    seems every hatch here is different? What is common? Gameness? Bottom? Shuffles? Bill hold?
    If a called pure hatch is dumbed. Is not he should be culled?

    if a ylh is smart? Cant he be called a kelso?

    so what really is the right hatch? That a newbie can know?

    rugged? Kill or be killed? Brutal force and intent.

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    Member Jake hill farm's Avatar
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    Re: What makes a hatch?

    I know I talk about them all the time but the bates that we had are your stereotypical rugged old hatch bird. They ain't gone go to the lights, or out class a rooster. They were pushing stay on your a$$ bottom beyond bottom powerful in the buckle devastating power 15 or 40 pittings later. That weren't excellent cutters but used to win a bunch in the first pitting or two. They weren't "dumb" they just didnt care about getting hit. They were overly aggressive and their sheer desire to kill couple with their power and dead ass game won them the majority of their fights.

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