Brother - Sister mating update.

[colt39]

Originally Posted by super fly

He has some already hooked as seen from the growing number of Boles apologists in this thread. Some have took to explaining things for Ray. The fact is Mr. Boles does not have chickens. He was confronted with this fact before in the old B/S mating threads when a group of Filipinos, including Edwin Aranez came to his Alabama farm a few years ago and found nothing. As to whom between Edwin and Ray to believe,..your guess is as good as mine. Ray disappeared for a while in this site but has since resurfaced with a new claim that his chickens are in Mexico and that he has brother/sister mated his Sweaters 20 generations to come up with his genetically superior fowls. Good luck confirming it guys. Lesson: When the well is dry, men will take to drinking any water they could find...

That is a very good point about the water lol. You are so correct!

Maybe he does not have fowl then. I just thought he was getting a hard time. That sure would explain
the uniformity in his fowl as anything is possible in a dream lol.

Nico, good point lol.

[chip001]

that would explain why he wouldnt post any pics of his past and present generations.

[kywolf]

Originally Posted by cnucum

Anybody would like to explain the term "short bred"?

to me the term short bred means any chickens that are breed that are KNOWINGLY bred that lack some qaulity that would make them worthless as battle fowl or brood fowl.i.e. gameness,fighting ability,etc. this could also mean crossed up mongrel fowl

[kali ises]

i wonder how much damage boles did with inexperienced breeders following his advice, might be a good idea to address questions to mike everett or jim clems.

[super fly]

Originally Posted by cnucum

Anybody would like to explain the term "short bred"?

"Short bred" is just the opposite of "Well bred". Kywolf is right. Short bred chickens are those not fit for battle or the brood pens...If you put it into the context of Mr.Boles system, all our fowls because they are genetically unpure are short bred...LOL

[lurena]

Originally Posted by chip001

that would explain why he wouldnt post any pics of his past and present generations.

Would it matter if he posted any random pictures from the internet or his friends fowl. I doubt we would be able to know the difference between the 1st generation and his 22 generation.

[gamecock96]

Originally Posted by cnucum

I read one poultry article a long time ago, stating a study made that "crooked breast bone" is not "hereditary", but by using a fowl that has that and repeatedly breeding to it, you will get more and more fowls that have that defect.

"Stocking Up" on the same traits... It's like having a lotto ticket that you already have half of the numbers that will appear, you will have a greater chance of getting the remaining winning numbers vs. another ticket that still has the full range of numbers...

It is not the crooked breast per se that you are transferring or breeding but the "REASON" that they are prone to crooked breast like soft breast bones. If you breed towards chickens with soft breast bones, then more chances that you will get it crooked.

Al

[cnucum]

Originally Posted by gamecock96

It is not the crooked breast per se that you are transferring or breeding but the "REASON" that they are prone to crooked breast like soft breast bones. If you breed towards chickens with soft breast bones, then more chances that you will get it crooked.

Al

yes that's what I am trying to convey... thanks for explaining it more simply...

[Mang Jack]

Originally Posted by kali ises

i wonder how much damage boles did with inexperienced breeders following his advice, might be a good idea to address questions to mike everett or jim clems.

this is the advantage of breeding in the Philippines. you have a chance to test every generation of your matings.

[kali ises]

mang jack, without a doubt stag season helps pi breeders, this thread was dangerous to inexperienced breedes which was why i wanted it closed, but now breeders like mike, jclem, super fly, etc have taken over the thread, breeders who will give solid advice to the less inexperienced breeders.

[super fly]

Originally Posted by kali ises

mang jack, without a doubt stag season helps pi breeders, this thread was dangerous to inexperienced breedes which was why i wanted it closed, but now breeders like mike, jclem, super fly, etc have taken over the thread, breeders who will give solid advice to the less inexperienced breeders.

Bro/Sis mating is a valuable tool in game fowl breeding. The problem is that this thread has taken it to the extreme. More of like a bad religion. Even Frank Shy would admit that this type of breeding coupled with common sense can produce good fowls. I've got 3 friends here in Cebu, who have used this tool to produce battle fowls but that is by mating 2 heavily inbred lines (not necessarily bro/sis mated) to produce heterosis. They've got 4 COTY titles in between themselves. The danger lies when a beginner ventures into this thread and thinks those bro/sis mated fowls can be fought and that continuous bro/sis mating is the only way to breed what they have. What would happen if those beginners only started with say a trio or a pair? One thing is for sure, that beginner will go to the pit with his genetically pure fowls and someone who knows better will beat him to a pulp and take his hard earned money. Much has been discussed here about COI, F, Isogenics and other stuff but published scientific experiments on poultry are one in saying that continuous bro/sis matings produces a steady and sometimes rapid decline in hatchability, over all health, viability and vigor etc. (extinction in some cases) that some of those experiments have to be discontinued. Breed well folks. LOL

[shanebo]

Originally Posted by David Dunn

You would never want to mate bro and sister unless you absolutly had to I have had good success line breeding but i havent tried bro and sister. You can take a pair and breed father to daughter and mother to son. Breed them down to 7/8-1/8 on each side and then set up several lines breeding the two lines back together and still have the original cross. Then you can cross those lines in almost endless combinations depending on how many lines you made. This is a form of inbreeding to just not as closely related as bro and sis. The main thing is to keep acurate records. This is the method I prefer.

I think Mr.Dunn posted a common sense method that anyone, even a beginner can follow and create good fowl. I think ever what method you use in your breeding program Selection and Testing is the key. I breed the same way as Mr.Dunn posted and have for many years, through good selection, only outstanding individuals have made into the brood pen. I think keeping up or having a good idea what the IC% is in your fowl is a good idea....I use it as a tool to help me set up my breeding pens each year, but I have never based my brood pens on IC%. I have been breeding the same fowl for almost 20 years and contrary to what Mr.Boles says, they still look the same as they did years ago and the performance has improved with very very little Bro-Sis matings. I think some people can get lost in the numbers and forget the fowl have to Perform well against top competition before you can make a judgement on your breeding and as Kali ises stated, a beginner could do some real damage if they were to base their breedings on some of the things written in this thread. I know the thread says Bro-Sis mating update......

[kali ises]

shanebo, thank you on elaborating, good to see the way this thread is now going. jwolf

[slwnstdy]

Originally Posted by kali ises

shanebo, thank you on elaborating, good to see the way this thread is now going. jwolf

Kali Ises & Super Fly

I understand the concern for the beginner, but some of us on the thread are in between being established like yourselves with hundreds of produce every year and starting off with a trio or two. We have also been in the game for a bit longer, so we do want to improve. We have seen inbreeding depression, seen the difficulty when you breed closely and watch the hatchability rate decrease, mortality increase, size diminish, all of that.

But it is important to understand WHY, it is important to understand before it happens that it will, so you can prepare for it.

I think, with due respect to those who do not believe, that the ones who can understand the numbers and the theory behind it and take what they can from it, use it in the practical way it was always meant to be, not be totally consumed by it, will take benefit in that.

I've been in other forums to know that not all that is posted should be understood, not everything applies. Sometimes some people hold back, for various personal reasons (sometimes they honestly just miss it). It is up to you to pick what is essential. We cannot always be spoonfeeding everyone.

[slwnstdy]

Originally Posted by colt39

I agree, all formulas apply on individual matings only. But the COI formula is based on RANDOM pairs, no selection. By selection, it is basic mathematics because all genes are either dominant or recessive & are made up of two alleles. just TWO. And if they show the traits you are breeding for, the traits are either homozygous or heterozygous & it is a basic math formula to figure out the probability.

The formula can be used on anybody who linbreeds as well. There has been nothing said about breeding back to a grandmother or grandfather. You linbreed continuously to his daughters each generation. In this case, it is my daughters daughter is my granddaughter but my daughter.

here is a quote of Rays that will help you understand his method better.

QUOTE]I have never single mated a hen except the one I used to origianaly lock the genes and I have never breed a cock that has been fought.]

Also Since the 7/8 pullets were used in the first cross and were inbred, when their brother was used to breed to their offspring, (His Nieces) the IC has to be adjusted because the 7/8 pullets extra homozygosity will make it more likely that they will transmit to their grandchildren the same copies of the same alleles that they passed to their daughters bred to their brother who also has copies of the same alleles.

Does any of this make sense or are some just using a formula that is used on flock mating that is random. IT ONLY APPLIES IF THE MATINGS ARE RANDOM.

Morning Jim,

As promised a few days ago, have just loaded the story of your Norman-Gilliam roundheads, here it is, in IC-speak. For those interested only.

Cheers, SLW

[kali ises]

slwnstdy, don't have to be spoonfeeding, but when you got absolute nonsense, that needs to be pointed out for those less experience, especially since this thread been going on for more than 1 breeding season. jwolf

[super fly]

Originally Posted by kali ises

slwnstdy, don't have to be spoonfeeding, but when you got absolute nonsense, that needs to be pointed out for those less experience, especially since this thread been going on for more than 1 breeding season. jwolf

“Better to shun the bait than struggle in the snare.”
― William Blake

[super fly]

Originally Posted by slwnstdy

Kali Ises & Super Fly

I understand the concern for the beginner, but some of us on the thread are in between being established like yourselves with hundreds of produce every year and starting off with a trio or two. We have also been in the game for a bit longer, so we do want to improve. We have seen inbreeding depression, seen the difficulty when you breed closely and watch the hatchability rate decrease, mortality increase, size diminish, all of that.

But it is important to understand WHY, it is important to understand before it happens that it will, so you can prepare for it.

I think, with due respect to those who do not believe, that the ones who can understand the numbers and the theory behind it and take what they can from it, use it in the practical way it was always meant to be, not be totally consumed by it, will take benefit in that.

I've been in other forums to know that not all that is posted should be understood, not everything applies. Sometimes some people hold back, for various personal reasons (sometimes they honestly just miss it). It is up to you to pick what is essential. We cannot always be spoonfeeding everyone.

“It is the obvious which is so difficult to see most of the time. People say 'It's as plain as the nose on your face.' But how much of the nose on your face can you see, unless someone holds a mirror up to you?”
― Isaac Asimov

[slwnstdy]

Originally Posted by kali ises

slwnstdy, don't have to be spoonfeeding, but when you got absolute nonsense, that needs to be pointed out for those less experience, especially since this thread been going on for more than 1 breeding season. jwolf

I do not believe for a moment that anyone would have followed the extreme 22 generations bro-sis. Youd be lucky to find the <1% who would do that. It has gone on for more than a year, well actually few years now and what has really made it lengthen? the arguing, trying to point out what is wrong who said what, etc...

I thought we could get deeper into the topic and, if it is indeed nonsense to breed even three generations, then let's discuss that with peoples experience, with details, relating back to theory, practical stuff...

People listen to you and I think the few posts youve said about bro-sis not being for the inexperienced have been heard and heeded by the beginners.

But anyway, it seems that none of the bro-sis breeders out there will come out any longer, so this thread is gooooone, as they say here in Oz.

[slwnstdy]

Originally Posted by super fly

“It is the obvious which is so difficult to see most of the time. People say 'It's as plain as the nose on your face.' But how much of the nose on your face can you see, unless someone holds a mirror up to you?”
― Isaac Asimov

I agree. You need to separate the man from the method, though. Though he is the thread starter, this is about a method, not the man. Whether he has chickens or not, changed his story several times, stands apart from the topic: brother-sister mating, and less obvious but probably more important, inbreeding and consistency.

[super fly]

Originally Posted by slwnstdy

I agree. You need to separate the man from the method, though. Though he is the thread starter, this is about a method, not the man. Whether he has chickens or not, changed his story several times, stands apart from the topic: brother-sister mating, and less obvious but probably more important, inbreeding and consistency.

“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.”
― Thomas Paine, Common Sense

[malalim]

Consistency in winning/pit performance or consistency in physical characteristics?

Originally Posted by slwnstdy

I agree. You need to separate the man from the method, though. Though he is the thread starter, this is about a method, not the man. Whether he has chickens or not, changed his story several times, stands apart from the topic: brother-sister mating, and less obvious but probably more important, inbreeding and consistency.

[gamecock96]

Originally Posted by slwnstdy

I agree. You need to separate the man from the method, though. Though he is the thread starter, this is about a method, not the man. Whether he has chickens or not, changed his story several times, stands apart from the topic: brother-sister mating, and less obvious but probably more important, inbreeding and consistency.

Hello Arn,
I think a lot of people reacts to the man's arrogance in his method. He say's he wants to teach but even in school, subjects in science are always accompanied by laboratory experiments to see the effects of what we are learning in theory. In this thread alone, there has been a lot of requests for him to SHOW us literally the product of the methods. But the only reply people get is more arrogance... If i were the one doing that, i would take lots of pics of my fowls and show the world what i have created. But no. All we get are words. I have no problem with others methods, but words are just words. It is hard for people to follow theories not proven by actual practise. Look at the produce of lets say RED farm.... I do not think they employ any brother sister mating but if you look at their fowls, they are homozygous in appearance? Spar them and they spar well and consistent.....

Al

[shanebo]

Originally Posted by slwnstdy

I thought we could get deeper into the topic and, if it is indeed nonsense to breed even three generations, then let's discuss that with peoples experience, with details, relating back to theory, practical stuff...

This is what the the thread really needs is those that have tried the Bro-Sis matings for several generations to post the results....We all know what Mr.Boles result is, perfect chickens!!!...it would be nice to hear from others what results they have had in Bro-Sis matings, good or bad!!!

SLW, you are right, those that have a little more experience could take a few things from the thread and implement it into their program...But Performance will always be the bottom line...for me anyway!!!

Shanebo

[kali ises]

the Bro-Sis matings for an several generations to post the results

bro-sis mating, if you choose to do it, is for material, not for the pit!

SLW, you are right, those that have a little more experience could take a few things from the thread and implement it into their program...But Performance will always be the bottom line...for me anyway!!!

to be honest, i would take nothing from this thread & implement in my breeding program.

[slwnstdy]

Originally Posted by malalim

Consistency in winning/pit performance or consistency in physical characteristics?

Has to be both. Have to be a bit more meticulous on the physical though if you want to call your breed yoir own. Like you would know your buliks from gengens, i think. And if you breed them long enough you would know they come out consistently medium stationed or between 1.8-2.0kg perhaps or a certain shade of colour. The mix of everything including fighting style smarts power youve put into.them.

[malalim]

Since I am not selling my fowl and I fight my own produce I would know that my buliks or my greys are mine alone...since I breed birds of the same style (of my own choosing) they would fight the same way...whether inbred or outcrossed...

Originally Posted by slwnstdy

Has to be both. Have to be a bit more meticulous on the physical though if you want to call your breed yoir own. Like you would know your buliks from gengens, i think. And if you breed them long enough you would know they come out consistently medium stationed or between 1.8-2.0kg perhaps or a certain shade of colour. The mix of everything including fighting style smarts power youve put into.them.

[gaff]

In our first generation we had half average and half way above average. We did two breedings. Two different brothers over one sister. There were some fantastic ones.
This was done as the dog killed the original mother.
Now the hens from that first bs breeding are being used in crosses and they look good.

[Golden Buddha]

Originally Posted by gamecock96

Hello Arn,
I think a lot of people reacts to the man's arrogance in his method. He say's he wants to teach but even in school, subjects in science are always accompanied by laboratory experiments to see the effects of what we are learning in theory. In this thread alone, there has been a lot of requests for him to SHOW us literally the product of the methods. But the only reply people get is more arrogance... If i were the one doing that, i would take lots of pics of my fowls and show the world what i have created. But no. All we get are words. I have no problem with others methods, but words are just words. It is hard for people to follow theories not proven by actual practise. Look at the produce of lets say RED farm.... I do not think they employ any brother sister mating but if you look at their fowls, they are homozygous in appearance? Spar them and they spar well and consistent.....

Al

...but you keep coming back to this thread and subject yourself to more arrogance?! Why?! Is it like addicted to drugs...you keep coming back for the pain! Take it easy Bro Al, yeah your right words are just words, move on and you'll be fine, stop whining!

[slwnstdy]

Originally Posted by gamecock96

Hello Arn,
I think a lot of people reacts to the man's arrogance in his method. He say's he wants to teach but even in school, subjects in science are always accompanied by laboratory experiments to see the effects of what we are learning in theory. In this thread alone, there has been a lot of requests for him to SHOW us literally the product of the methods. But the only reply people get is more arrogance... If i were the one doing that, i would take lots of pics of my fowls and show the world what i have created. But no. All we get are words. I have no problem with others methods, but words are just words. It is hard for people to follow theories not proven by actual practise. Look at the produce of lets say RED farm.... I do not think they employ any brother sister mating but if you look at their fowls, they are homozygous in appearance? Spar them and they spar well and consistent.....

Al

Good afternoon Sir,

The personality of Mr. Boles has coloured this thread no doubt, but since
he started the whole discussion, nothing we can do about it. If he werent in the picture, and if we just had a thread on the topic of brother sister mating, wouldnt you think we would get a lot more meaningful words and discussion going, probably more pics too.

Cheers, see you again in one of the Saturday gaffing sessions when I am there...