Brother - Sister mating update.

[1st DAN]

Whether it is a strain or a family, you got to go out and test them in the pits. No other way to maintain a good family or strain except to "continously and oftenly" fight them and in tough competition if you can and when you can. I believe we are still talking fighting cocks here. Like what I have said in the other BS thread, it has its uses, it can work, but it is not for everybody, especially for those who very rarely fight and do not know what they got in their hands...

[feryu04]

Originally Posted by 1st DAN

Whether it is a strain or a family, you got to go out and test them in the pits. No other way to maintain a good family or strain except to "continously and oftenly" fight them and in tough competition if you can and when you can. I believe we are still talking fighting cocks here. Like what I have said in the other BS thread, it has its uses, it can work, but it is not for everybody, especially for those who very rarely fight and do not know what they got in their hands...

I agree on your point sir, I think people should atleast have kept and fought birds for atleast 5 years or so before doing the BS mating if they dont have anyone who will be guiding them.

Knowing what you have in your hands is the best barometer, if you dont know what birds you have what game style, their genetic history, they are like a useless weapon gathering dust. Then if you misuse them or they are raised or trained wrong the newbies blame the breeder...

Some breeders just breed for the "PRODUCTION" as many as possible without thinking about what they are producing is another man's dream or another man's investment of time and money.

So another group of people whom this wont work is those who breed indiscriminately for profits only... Because BS mating wont be prolific until you have reached Homozygocity of sound and healthy genes... This happens usually on the 5th - 7th generation of Brother-Sister mating.

[nilodeleon]

Originally Posted by Golden Buddha

Mangelo, they are my Chicken, My money and my time!!! I dont fight inbreds!!! I fight battlecrosses!!! I still have that Bruce Barnette Sweater Broodcock in My yard! Tested, HELL NO, $500.00 plus $80.00 shipment fee, i will fight him for PHP 10,00.00!
I dont owe you an explanation, but if you can't still see to logic, just get off my back and mind your own business!!!

gb,
can't seems to figure out why you always become combative if someone asked you something, oh well, must be the coffee you've been drinking ;-). anyway, base on this post of yours, we're talking about sibling matings here, that $500.- sweater in your yard, don't you breed them on a hen and start a b/s mating? which i'm pretty sure what mangelo were asking and so am i because i don't see anybody here asked you to fight your sweater broodcock but the poduce of your b/s matings. duh? ;-)
kid

[nilodeleon]

and one more thing, please try not to ask me for a main because i might be force to take you on it. on 2 conditions though, like what i said can't bet more than 22k but you said you can only bet 11k so we don't have a problem with the betting. if we can do it in my turf SMCA (Sta. Maria Cockpit Arena) any day at the start of June to June 24. i have to go back to abu dhabi on the 25th.
kid

[FILAMEX]

Originally Posted by feryu04

Thank you for elaborating on your question sir, the Answer is simple, after the 5th generation or the 7th generation the birds we produce are very consistent. So why add more to the genome when it is already complete?

We outcross for the sake of experimenting on something new. For fighting purpose we produce "Battle Crosses" because we need to observe if there is room for improvement in the line that is already consistent.

Science is continuous learning, but if there is something that shows consistent results why change it? And besides outcrossing for me ha and for my family produces a gamble. Why? Because the new cross might not work, or it might bring in a new nick.

To simplify really the answer is we do it because it works and very very well. In fact we use to own a 30th generation Bro-Sis mating result, A Cock named Kabayo (Horse in english) who won 14x before he died of Old Age. Not of mortal wounds... I leave it to your imagination sir You are free to visit our farm in Pacita or call my dad to investigate further if my answer is still not satisfactory to you

Sir feryu04,
Our friend here GB has 4 lines of his "Cassius Clay" fowls that are now on their 5th gen of BS mating. He's planning to cross this 4 lines with each other at 6th generation because of the belief that their is no more common ancestors thus "no more blood relationship" among the offsprings at that stage. Do you share the same understanding or belief in this genetic dictum?
You might have more different lines or families of your white and red strain of Lemons but, lets just say you have 3 lines of each. What are some distinct phenotypic differences that you've set in them? Just being curious.
Thanks again.

[Golden Buddha]

Kid, what do we have here, apples and oranges, huh, which is which duh...you asked me this question:......and i answered it! Did you read my answer!!!
gb,
when you said you don't fight your inbreds, how could you figure out which inbred lines and at what generations they perform the best?

Originally Posted by nilodeleon

gb,
can't seems to figure out why you always become combative if someone asked you something, oh well, must be the coffee you've been drinking ;-). anyway, base on this post of yours, we're talking about sibling matings here, that $500.- sweater in your yard, don't you breed them on a hen and start a b/s mating? which i'm pretty sure what mangelo were asking and so am i because i don't see anybody here asked you to fight your sweater broodcock but the poduce of your b/s matings. duh? ;-)
kid

Originally Posted by nilodeleon

and one more thing, please try not to ask me for a main because i might be force to take you on it. on 2 conditions though, like what i said can't bet more than 22k but you said you can only bet 11k so we don't have a problem with the betting. if we can do it in my turf SMCA (Sta. Maria Cockpit Arena) any day at the start of June to June 24. i have to go back to abu dhabi on the 25th.
kid

Read Mangelo's post again, it might help,oohh he's your townmate, thats what he posted, Sta Maria, Bulacan! and you're right about the coffee, i dont smoke, i'm a chain coffee-drinker No, i happen to opt not to B/S my Sweater BC for a reason!
For the record i never called a MAIN, you can bakctrack on all my post, i'm sure i did not call one. What i posted is invite someone for a 2 cocks ulutan!!! And for the record, im not calling you for a MAIN, but may i invite you for a 2 cocks ulutan in one of the 4 pits in Pampanga.

[nilodeleon]

Originally Posted by Golden Buddha

Kid, what do we have here, apples and oranges, huh, which is which duh...you asked me this question:......and i answered it! Did you read my answer!!!
gb,
when you said you don't fight your inbreds, how could you figure out which inbred lines and at what generations they perform the best?

Read Mangelo's post again, it might help,oohh he's your townmate, thats what he posted, Sta Maria, Bulacan! and you're right about the coffee, i dont smoke, i'm a chain coffee-drinker No, i happen to opt not to B/S my Sweater BC for a reason!
For the record i never called a MAIN, you can bakctrack on all my post, i'm sure i did not call one. What i posted is invite someone for a 2 cocks ulutan!!! And for the record, im not calling you for a MAIN, but may i invite you for a 2 cocks ulutan in one of the 4 pits in Pampanga.

hehehe...that figures.
kid

[feryu04]

Originally Posted by FILAMEX

Sir feryu04,
Our friend here GB has 4 lines of his "Cassius Clay" fowls that are now on their 5th gen of BS mating. He's planning to cross this 4 lines with each other at 6th generation because of the belief that their is no more common ancestors thus "no more blood relationship" among the offsprings at that stage. Do you share the same understanding or belief in this genetic dictum?
You might have more different lines or families of your white and red strain of Lemons but, lets just say you have 3 lines of each. What are some distinct phenotypic differences that you've set in them? Just being curious.
Thanks again.

Please elaborate on your question sir because I dont understand what he is trying to achieve?

If they are coming from the same seed fowl on the f1 they are still related sir but I see no ill effects. Just a risk of breeding in back a defect that might have already cleansed out. You see one of the aims of homzygocity in our breeding program is to breed out or cleanse out defects so you can produce uniform offspring.

As per the whites and the reds, well the whites as you would know have white... They are taller and more slender in build compared to the original reds of our line which tend to be low station and wide chested.

[FILAMEX]

Originally Posted by feryu04

Please elaborate on your question sir because I dont understand what he is trying to achieve?

If they are coming from the same seed fowl on the f1 they are still related sir but I see no ill effects. Just a risk of breeding in back a defect that might have already cleansed out. You see one of the aims of homzygocity in our breeding program is to breed out or cleanse out defects so you can produce uniform offspring.

As per the whites and the reds, well the whites as you would know have white... They are taller and more slender in build compared to the original reds of our line which tend to be low station and wide chested.

Looks like you got the question sir feryu04. But to elaborate what GB is planning to do, let me simplify it. He has 4 lines of his "Cassius Clays" which all descended from F1's from a "nick" pair of Brownred X Hatch. Lets say his 4 lines are lines F1A, F1B, F1C, & F1D. These 4 lines are now in their 5th generation of BS inbreeding as GB says. So let's say they are now lines A5, B5, C5, & D5. He would then breed a BS from these four lines to make his 6th generation "Cassius Clay" lines which would then be lines A6, B6, C6, & D6. Now, as per GB, their is a "genetic law"which says that at this stage(6th generation and above of BS mating), these "Cassius Clay" fowls WON'T be related to each other anymore as they WON't have anymore a Common Ancestor. Thus, they can be crossed with each other to hasten Hybrid Vigor. I think that hybrid vigor is feasible when you cross them with each other but, I'm kind of confused though about their blood relationship at this stage. Because I would think that even at these stage(6th generation), these 4 lines(A6,B6,C6,D6) would still be First Cousins just like their F1 grand grand parents that are a product of that "nick" pair of Brownred X Hatch. This is my ignorant way of seeing it and I would appreciate some education about it.

Thanks for pointing out some differences between your White and Red Lemons. So are you perpetuating only ONE line of each every year?
Have a nice one.

[pigafetta08]

Originally Posted by nilodeleon

hehehe...that figures.
kid

Out of topic, but..
We hail from the same town..
We live in Garden Village...

[Golden Buddha]

Originally Posted by feryu04

Please elaborate on your question sir because I dont understand what he is trying to achieve?

If they are coming from the same seed fowl on the f1 they are still related sir but I see no ill effects. Just a risk of breeding in back a defect that might have already cleansed out. You see one of the aims of homzygocity in our breeding program is to breed out or cleanse out defects so you can produce uniform offspring.

As per the whites and the reds, well the whites as you would know have white... They are taller and more slender in build compared to the original reds of our line which tend to be low station and wide chested.

Good point feryu04! I'm actually contemplatimg to go this direction. But hearing from "people in the Know", i would not take the risk of having a defect breed-back to my other lines! Also you mentioned that at 5-7 gens the offspring would be more uniform and at this point most if not all defects are bred-out, which is supported by that published article that most of inbreeding degeneration occurs between 2nd to 8th generation.

With that, i would then re-direct my program, to go forward in breeding the next generations. I am thankfull for sharing me a very good pointer in producing this inbred line thru B/S method.
Futhermore, may i ask this questions: How many pairs did you use in one bloodline to reached your 37 gens!? Or did you have several pairs?! Please elaborate, if it's possible or if you don't mind. I am not that adept in this subject, a help or advice from you or your Dad would be very much appreciated!!!
Wishing you, your Dad and your Family more success in your breeding endeavor!

[nilodeleon]

Originally Posted by pigafetta08

Out of topic, but..
We hail from the same town..
We live in Garden Village...

i'll be showing some birds on a 3 cock derby in sta. maria cockpit arena on june 5th, maybe you can drop by and you'll be my guest that day.
kid

[salamat po]

Originally Posted by nilodeleon

i'll be showing some birds on a 3 cock derby in sta. maria cockpit arena on june 5th, maybe you can drop by and you'll be my guest that day.
kid

Ser I smell another main in the making here. I will go there on June 5 for the main event.

[pigafetta08]

Originally Posted by nilodeleon

i'll be showing some birds on a 3 cock derby in sta. maria cockpit arena on june 5th, maybe you can drop by and you'll be my guest that day.
kid

How i wish..
But i'm out of the country..
But it's nice to know there are a lot of Bulakeños here..
And serious cockers to boot!