Brother - Sister mating update. - Page 2 - Sabong, Cockfighting and Gamefowl Posting Pit

competitor · August 4th, 2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colt39

Are they going back to the Rampuri side? They are looking uniform & will be even more uniform at 15/16. Imagin trying to get them that uniform by bro/sis mateing in that lenth of time.

HOW ARE YOU JIM?...JUST WANNA LET YOU KNOW THAT YOUR GIFT IN CURRENTLY BEING MATED TO AN ASIL COCK(DOUG HUGHS LINE) THAT WON STRAIGHT LAST APRIL...IM HAVING HIGH HOPES ON THIS MATING,HOPE IT TURNED OUT GOOD...

borderlinefowl · August 4th, 2009, 10:32 PM

i bred some brother sister mating in my koopman blue family 2 years ago the cock are now doing well looking fine and acting great im not sure i would do them to another brother sister mating but will put him over momma and str8 cousins but this is just how i like it

arkinsly-jrl · August 4th, 2009, 11:10 PM

Ray, ive been breeding your sweaters for a while and either way how i breed it the offsprings loook all the same and fight the same! consistency not perfection as what you have said it is a matter of good selection of broodfowls! i do not have troubles in maintaining the sweaters that i got from you! so far the methods that ive been using is doin well with my birds! thank you so much!

muscledean · August 5th, 2009, 01:02 AM

i bred a pair of mcreys that was bro. and sis,a albany pair and next year i plan on inbreeding a couple of my sweater lines.im keeping close records though to make shure i keep the ones bred the way mr. boles does seperate from the others that i breed the traditional way? whatever that means.but so far the offspring looks great,i wont know till i tie the blade on them though but so far so good!!!! oh and your record keeping with this method is a key,i have that ZOOEASY PROGRAM and it is great especially using mr boles method it automaiticly gives you the percent of each birds parents offspring. best record keeping software going.try it .it will help you alot!

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnucum

has anyone done any bro-sis pairing this breeding season?

BananaCamp · August 5th, 2009, 06:56 AM

after breeding BS for three seasons I made a decision to discontinure mating the BS family...I have discarded the whole family...they were coming of average ability. I still have a hen left from the last mating but, I'm not sure if I'm going to use her in my breeding program next year.....I had better luck linebreeding the traditional way and had better performances from linebreeding (uncle to niece).....I'm just a backyard breeder and I just don't have the space to continue the BS matings (numbers and selection).....breeding best to the best seems to work for me, with what little time we have and all the laws....gotta cut back hard and just enjoy the birds you throwing feed too......good luck

RayBoles · August 5th, 2009, 08:02 AM

At 4 genertations of BS my fowl showed consistency. The next year I line breed most, all except my dr/lo and they are in their 16 generation of BS. You guys must remember that most of you are dealing with fowl with alot of mixed up genes. There are only two reasons a bird should get shorter, environment and genes that combined to create short.

August 5th, 2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

It has now been two or three years that I posted my method of breeding brother to sister and line breeding from there. I would like to know if any have tried it and what was their outcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackwaterfarms

I think this is the quickest way to ruin a strain of fowl. Carol

runwaygf · August 6th, 2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

It has now been two or three years that I posted my method of breeding brother to sister and line breeding from there. I would like to know if any have tried it and what was their outcome.

TRIED THIS LAST SEASON. THE STAGS WERE REALLY SMALL WEIGHING ONLY ABOUT 1.6KG... COULD NOT EVEN MAKE THE ACCEPTED WEIGHT CUT-OFF FOR STAG WHICH IS 1.7KG.

TOO BAD, THEY ARE FIGHTING QUITE WELL BUT WE COULD'NT USE THEM FOR THE COMING STAG DERBIES WITH THE WEIGHT DISADVANTAGE.TOO RISKY!

RayBoles · August 7th, 2009, 03:17 AM

No breeders in the world breed like the game cock breeder. Mabey the rest of the world is wrong.

colt39 · August 7th, 2009, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

No breeders in the world breed like the game cock breeder. Mabey the rest of the world is wrong.

Does the rest of the world demand so much from the out-come as gamefowl breeders do?

August 7th, 2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

No breeders in the world breed like the game cock breeder. Mabey the rest of the world is wrong.

Ray, just wanna know what you think about this article. Looks like you're right. Maybe the rest of the world is wrong that's why the need to consider breeding methods of cockers of long time ago.

FURTHER BREEDING OPTIONS
Dr Charles R H Everett With Craig Russell

In our most recent Breeder?s Directory, Christine Willard wrote an article entitled "Small Flock Breeding." This article summarized two previous articles on the subject, one by Craig Russell, the other by **** Demasky; plus, it added information on breeding out-and-out. For those of us involved in preservation the rolling-mating system as advocated by Russell and the clan-mating system as advocated by Demansky are basic. However, there are still other systems that can be utilized by the preservationist in strategic ways.
My personal research in breeding has led me to begin gathering and collecting articles and books by cockfighters (cockers) of long ago; these men of the past preserved several different breeds of chickens for hundreds possibly even thousands of years. During that time they maintained type and vigor to an unparallel degree. It is my belief that their methods of breeding should be examined in detail to be utilized by the modern preservationist. ... Further, I believe the modern preservationist can learn much more from the breeding techniques of cockers than he/she can from textbooks on commercial poultry breeding.. ...Cocker Tan Bark states, "Good breeding is only a matter of intelligent selection of brood fowl?."
What the ole time cockers strove for was prepotency. ...... Of course, they were looking for gameness, but using their methods, a breeder can breed for type, fertility, egg production, etc.

One of the truly wonderful things about raising chickens is that you the breeder can choose your own system of breeding to create your "own strain." Yes, you can even experiment! Regardless of how you personally feel about the sport of cockfighting, these men of a by gone era have much to teach us. So, why not learn from the original preservationist: cockers?

PS: Segments of a long article copied and pasted from another site.

filamforks

romy 3388 · August 7th, 2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runwaygf

TRIED THIS LAST SEASON. THE STAGS WERE REALLY SMALL WEIGHING ONLY ABOUT 1.6KG... COULD NOT EVEN MAKE THE ACCEPTED WEIGHT CUT-OFF FOR STAG WHICH IS 1.7KG.

TOO BAD, THEY ARE FIGHTING QUITE WELL BUT WE COULD'NT USE THEM FOR THE COMING STAG DERBIES WITH THE WEIGHT DISADVANTAGE.TOO RISKY!

Thats alright , for a person who have a lot of time to play . But for an old player like me that has more important thing to waste his time , I wont ever do that kind of mating po .
SORRY LANG...........

runwaygf · August 7th, 2009, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romy 3388

Thats alright , for a person who have a lot of time to play . But for an old player like me that has more important thing to waste his time , I wont ever do that kind of mating po .
SORRY LANG...........

Well for me I have no regret trying this method despite of the not so good outcome... Me and my partner learnt so much from this experience and I guess that's what we have earned so in that sense it's not really a waste of time at all!

peace.....

colt39 · August 7th, 2009, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filamforks

FURTHER BREEDING OPTIONS
Dr Charles R H Everett With Craig Russell

In our most recent Breeder?s Directory, Christine Willard wrote an article entitled "Small Flock Breeding." This article summarized two previous articles on the subject, one by Craig Russell, the other by **** Demasky; plus, it added information on breeding out-and-out. For those of us involved in preservation the rolling-mating system as advocated by Russell and the clan-mating system as advocated by Demansky are basic. However, there are still other systems that can be utilized by the preservationist in strategic ways.
My personal research in breeding has led me to begin gathering and collecting articles and books by cockfighters (cockers) of long ago; these men of the past preserved several different breeds of chickens for hundreds possibly even thousands of years. During that time they maintained type and vigor to an unparallel degree. It is my belief that their methods of breeding should be examined in detail to be utilized by the modern preservationist. ... Further, I believe the modern preservationist can learn much more from the breeding techniques of cockers than he/she can from textbooks on commercial poultry breeding.. ...Cocker Tan Bark states, "Good breeding is only a matter of intelligent selection of brood fowl?."
What the ole time cockers strove for was prepotency. ...... Of course, they were looking for gameness, but using their methods, a breeder can breed for type, fertility, egg production, etc.

filamforks

Filamforks, good post.

Tell everybody in the world to take the different types of Bird Dogs & set a strain of bird dog that can do everything like we have with gamefowl.

I don't want a pointer or a water dog. I don't want a Retriever or a upland dog. I want one that can do it all. TELL THE WORLD TO BREED A BIRD DOG THAT CAN DO THIS. They can't or they would have. they have tried but can't seem to get it right. Nothing with consistancy.

We have power, speed, smarts, gameness, vigor, health & everything roled up into one. they can do it all.

banate · August 7th, 2009, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

At 4 genertations of BS my fowl showed consistency. The next year I line breed most, all except my dr/lo and they are in their 16 generation of BS. You guys must remember that most of you are dealing with fowl with alot of mixed up genes. There are only two reasons a bird should get shorter, environment and genes that combined to create short.

Ray,

How does the environment affect the height of the chickens? Can you please elaborate more on this topic. Thanks.

Nonong

Mike Everett · August 8th, 2009, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filamforks

FURTHER BREEDING OPTIONS
Dr Charles R H Everett With Craig Russell

In our most recent Breeder?s Directory, Christine Willard wrote an article entitled "Small Flock Breeding." This article summarized two previous articles on the subject, one by Craig Russell, the other by **** Demasky; plus, it added information on breeding out-and-out. For those of us involved in preservation the rolling-mating system as advocated by Russell and the clan-mating system as advocated by Demansky are basic. However, there are still other systems that can be utilized by the preservationist in strategic ways.
My personal research in breeding has led me to begin gathering and collecting articles and books by cockfighters (cockers) of long ago; these men of the past preserved several different breeds of chickens for hundreds possibly even thousands of years. During that time they maintained type and vigor to an unparallel degree. It is my belief that their methods of breeding should be examined in detail to be utilized by the modern preservationist. ... Further, I believe the modern preservationist can learn much more from the breeding techniques of cockers than he/she can from textbooks on commercial poultry breeding.. ...Cocker Tan Bark states, "Good breeding is only a matter of intelligent selection of brood fowl?."
What the ole time cockers strove for was prepotency. ...... Of course, they were looking for gameness, but using their methods, a breeder can breed for type, fertility, egg production, etc.

One of the truly wonderful things about raising chickens is that you the breeder can choose your own system of breeding to create your "own strain." Yes, you can even experiment! Regardless of how you personally feel about the sport of cockfighting, these men of a by gone era have much to teach us. So, why not learn from the original preservationist: cockers?

PS: Segments of a long article copied and pasted from another site.

filamforks

I guess the "Professor" Ray Boles would just say there is just another stupid EVERETT out there, but wait.....this one's a "Doctor". Little harder sell don't you think...

RayBoles · August 8th, 2009, 05:13 AM

Mike and Jim would you two answer the question on how enviroment can create short. Jim how in the world can you say a well breed field trial dog doesn,t have all the things you mentioned. How about calling some one who raises them and tell them that. Didn,t the red jungle fowl have most of these traits to start with. Dr. Everett is stating his opinion, what,s your point. Would someone contact Dr. Everett and ask him the correct method in creating a strain. Jim , are you saying every game bird in the world have the traits you suggested.

bluelegged · August 8th, 2009, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnucum

has anyone done any bro-sis pairing this breeding season?

..how can we keep the genetic value of a winning line not to do this? the offsprings are getting better and stronger. in the first mating, offsprings will have different features, colors, etc...it's up to the breeders to have a uniform ones....sort it. then breed the same features, and now, it's only you the breeder who'll know that your different features and colors are brothers and sisters...and there goes on the gospel of breeding

bluelegged · August 8th, 2009, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

It has now been two or three years that I posted my method of breeding brother to sister and line breeding from there. I would like to know if any have tried it and what was their outcome.

..IT'S GOOD, WE WERE ABLE TO MAINTAIN A WINNING LINE...CHEERS!

Mike Everett · August 8th, 2009, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Mike and Jim would you two answer the question on how enviroment can create short. Jim how in the world can you say a well breed field trial dog doesn,t have all the things you mentioned. How about calling some one who raises them and tell them that. Didn,t the red jungle fowl have most of these traits to start with. Dr. Everett is stating his opinion, what,s your point. Would someone contact Dr. Everett and ask him the correct method in creating a strain. Jim , are you saying every game bird in the world have the traits you suggested.

Ah..you go ahead you brought it up, though I agree with you..you're the one that missed a genetic 101 question with the Andalusian Blue. Here's your make up test. You call him you're the one who claims your's is the only way. Did you break the fullsib mating? Are you claiming that your 16 generation brotherxsister are a true line of brotherxsister descended from 2 individuals and represented by only two individuals of fullsibs per generation. Yes we can fix genes and they don't have to be that related. Find a performance dog breed where the general population has of COI of greater than 50%. Dare ya....

borderlinefowl · August 8th, 2009, 10:37 AM

These are all members of the SPPA, and here is the contact info. The articles were written for their news letter but they are always happy to help, Charles Everett, Secretary-Treasurer
Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities
1057 Nick Watts Rd.
Lugoff, SC 29078
e-mail: crheverett@bellsouth.net

Craig Russell, President
Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities
Rt. 4 Box 251
Middleburg, PA 17842
570-837-3157

Mike Everett · August 8th, 2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borderlinefowl

These are all members of the SPPA, and here is the contact info. The articles were written for their news letter but they are always happy to help, Charles Everett, Secretary-Treasurer
Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities
1057 Nick Watts Rd.
Lugoff, SC 29078
e-mail: crheverett@bellsouth.net

Craig Russell, President
Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities
Rt. 4 Box 251
Middleburg, PA 17842
570-837-3157

Great Borderline. Boles is a fraud. He is copying most of his information from an article called " Breeding Myths" by JP Yousha. He is cherry picking, posting misinformation and half quotes out of context. Only picking from the article what he wants and ignoring the authors intent to give both sides. Twisting it to fit into his theory and misquoting the author. Mr. Yousha makes some good points, but nothing like Ray has twisted it into. Ray post the whole article and let people see. Your busted.....

borderlinefowl · August 8th, 2009, 11:15 AM

;0...................

gamecock96 · August 8th, 2009, 11:15 AM

I have done this 2 generations and they do come consistent. Only 1 line i have done this and not because of choice but because of circumstance. My friend bought pure bates black that came out to be brother and sisters. This produced a few specimens and he gifted me with a pair from here, that i bred again borther sister. now the mother died, and i am breeding it the offspring to the father. At the same time, i have crossed them to my other fowls that i intend to fight. They still come out healthy with the inbreeding and the height and size seems to be not affected at this time.

Al

colt39 · August 8th, 2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Everett

Great Borderline. Boles is a fraud. He is copying most of his information from an article called " Breeding Myths" by JP Yousha. He is cherry picking, posting misinformation and half quotes out of context. Only picking from the article what he whats and ignoring the authors intent to give both sides. Twisting it to fit into his theory and misquoting the author. Mr. Yousha makes some good points, but nothing like Ray has twisted it into. Ray post the whole article and let people see. Your busted.....

Mike, this is not the first time either, lol.

Also, Ray, we are not talking about show & trial dogs. I bred Retievers for a while & hunted with most types & they do not have it all. They each have a quality trait or two that they excell in but only true to their type, nothing more.

We put them all to the test where they were truly tested.

August 8th, 2009, 06:32 PM

now you guys are talking about dogs, anyone who has been around dogs will tell you mutts are healthier than pure breds!all this brother/sistermating is nonsense, generation after generation of sister/brother breeding. the quote by blackwater farms says it all! very dangerous for an inexperienced breeder!

anthony0079 · August 8th, 2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Everett

"Breeding Myths" by JP Yousha
Ray post the whole article and let people see.

Sir mike, just in case Mr. Boles lost his copy.. Can you post it for us. the Article seem every interesting. thank you

bluelegged · August 8th, 2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james wolf

now you guys are talking about dogs, anyone who has been around dogs will tell you mutts are healthier than pure breds!all this brother/sistermating is nonsense, generation after generation of sister/brother breeding. the quote by blackwater farms says it all! very dangerous for an inexperienced breeder!

..james, if you hit the winning line what are you going to do to keep the blood intact? breed it to whom?

..ye i agree to inexperienced breeder! cheers!

RayBoles · August 8th, 2009, 11:16 PM

Mike put up some money and I will produce several dog breeders who have a coi of over 50. And it still you opinion of the blue. What made the blue. jameswolf , if those mutts are so great, how come they are all over the roads, and the pounds are full of them. Pick up two mutts from the pound and breed them to come consistent. gamecock96, how could this be, you know it is impossible. arkinsly-jri, are you saying my fowl did exactly as I told you. hatchkill, you know close breeding will destroy them, according to Jim and Mike. Jim just what have you breed into the jungle fowl that they did not arleady have. What,s the bull s--- they can do everything. They have no more ability than the last Kentucky Derby winner. Jim did you create the instinct ability of game fowl or did evolution. muscledean: If read you correctly, your BS are doing good, Mike and Jim are you keeping score.

Mike Everett · August 9th, 2009, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Mike put up some money and I will produce several dog breeders who have a coi of over 50. And it still you opinion of the blue. What made the blue. jameswolf , if those mutts are so great, how come they are all over the roads, and the pounds are full of them. Pick up two mutts from the pound and breed them to come consistent. gamecock96, how could this be, you know it is impossible. arkinsly-jri, are you saying my fowl did exactly as I told you. hatchkill, you know close breeding will destroy them, according to Jim and Mike. Jim just what have you breed into the jungle fowl that they did not arleady have. What,s the bull s--- they can do everything. They have no more ability than the last Kentucky Derby winner. Jim did you create the instinct ability of game fowl or did evolution. muscledean: If read you correctly, your BS are doing good, Mike and Jim are you keeping score.

It isn't an opinion on the Andalusian Blue. You gave an incorrect answer on Ridgerunner's question. It is fact and in every freshman genetic textbook..it's a classic genetic example..call McMurry Hatchary and ask them. On the dogs I said general population ..name one.
Here's some example from the UK Kennel Club on COI of dog breeds taken from their records:
Boxer:
% inbred COI of greater(>) than .25 = 1.6%
% linebred COI (>) .0625 and less that .25 =30.2 %
% outcrossed COI .0625 or less = 20.1%
Bulldog:
inbred greater=0.7%
linebred less than .25 =32.8
outcrossed less than .0625 =23.1
None of their registered dog breeds have general population of .50 or greater.
Time will tell if people keep breeding mult-fullsibs.