Brother - Sister mating update.

[gnomestorm]

the way i can ever see this happening is ray boles was touched by god, and is "kindly and compassionately" sharing his experience. he has the hand of god that can select the perfect fowl, or the lucky fowls showed up at the right perfect time. sort of like the planets aligning and a laser shoots ur backyard. when u go back to inspect it, there's a secret room full of gold. pure coincidence and a little luck. but one person's success cannot determine that others who does this will have the same type of success.

you have to set this up with the scientific method instead of just a blog. every little detail. u may have some genius that we folk don't have and need ur enlightenment.

i assure you, if i follow the same exact thing that you did, from every little detail that you did and have success with it, i'll be the first one to donate 100 dollars for a monument that mentions your name.

you can also publish a book. explaining every little process. 200-300 pages. this will make you credible. since we're people, we can't understand a few certain points that you think we all should know already.

it's legal to start a farm in phillipines. for a few couple hundred or thousand. u can send a few of ur sweaters there to someone you trust and see how well they do. yes, you have proved urself as a winner, but we'd like to see you do it again in 2012. 2013. if it's consistent with more wins than losses from birds that are pure, then i would make a better conclusion for myself.

say, you do 20 fights. u win 11. i'll give credit where it's due.

[Golden Buddha]

Gnomestorm, Ray Boles is here and he will answer your question. He will walk you thru if you wished. He used to have a partner in the Philippines but he moved to Mexico as with Joe Sandfor a WSD champ, there is no more market for sweater in Phil, too many sweaters!

Good luck to your breeding!

[FILAMEX]

RayBoles
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 501
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Yellow Hatch the genes are lock at the first brother-sister mating but you con not breed back to the parents until the second mating. From there you can breed in any direction. I am elated to see so much understanding of this breeding process. Now we can make our own pure blood lines and maintain them. I will always say 95% of all the old blood lines we called pure were not pure at all, but only families of fowl. If they were pure why do they look and perform so different. When you add outside blood to your pure fowl they are no longer pure and will never be pure again. Today 95% of our fowl are no more than a mixed up mess of genes. If you research more the breeding methods used by the poultry industry you will more understand the direction you must be going. Most think you have to cross to have battle fowl, in the future by using this method with proper selection, you will see it is not necessary to cross. If you do cross and get good fowl you will have to use this method to mainting them or you will have to use the same method to maintain the parent fowl. If you do not lock the genes you are going no where. Good luck with your breeding.

Hello Ray,
Just wondering if "the genes are lock at the first brother-sister mating", is
updated now to, "the genes are lock after 20 generations of brother X sister mating". Please clarify. Thanks

[Golden Buddha]

RayBoles
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 501
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Yellow Hatch the genes are lock at the first brother-sister mating but you con not breed back to the parents until the second mating. From there you can breed in any direction. I am elated to see so much understanding of this breeding process. Now we can make our own pure blood lines and maintain them. I will always say 95% of all the old blood lines we called pure were not pure at all, but only families of fowl. If they were pure why do they look and perform so different. When you add outside blood to your pure fowl they are no longer pure and will never be pure again. Today 95% of our fowl are no more than a mixed up mess of genes. If you research more the breeding methods used by the poultry industry you will more understand the direction you must be going. Most think you have to cross to have battle fowl, in the future by using this method with proper selection, you will see it is not necessary to cross. If you do cross and get good fowl you will have to use this method to mainting them or you will have to use the same method to maintain the parent fowl. If you do not lock the genes you are going no where. Good luck with your breeding.




Check "How I Made and Maintained My Family By Ray Boles", at Sundown Game Farm Website posted by Kemosabe.....Similar to Harry Parr's, get hold of Mr Parr's book, "Breeding the Gamecock"!...and similar to what Carl Saia taught me to breed broodfowl, 20 plus years ago!!!!

[widowmaker82]

i dont know much about genetics and scientific terms but i have been using ray boles sweater since 2006 and it did good to me even if i only joined small shows! the unforgettable one when i won and i was the underdog and my bird didnt even get scratched and it won 2 times my opponent was a gerrard hatch directly bought from dee cox farm for an enpensive price and i gave it to my friend that has a farm in cavite philippines! what amazed me about ray boles sweater is the way they dictate the rythm of the fight! they are not these fancy looking birds that throws their feet like machine guns, they are very smart birds and they cope with the opponents style they dont fly 6 feet high but if they know that they beat them in the air they will go up and if their opponents got up in the air they will just stay under and wait for the other bird to go down and hit them with one or two punch amd youll get knocked out! if i would describe how these birds style they fight like mayweather and punch like pacquiao! thats all!

[RayBoles]

Jim as usual let me show you how DUMB you are. Ihave never single mated but one hen, is correct, from there, i breed stags and pullets. Each gen, I have two pens, AS I STATED BEFORE. One pen has ONE stag and ONE pullett. The other pen has ONE stag and atleast 6 pullets, all full B-S. The single mated pen, produces the next gen. The second pen is for what ever I choose them for. This is continued each gen. 1gen, IC 25%, 2nd gen IC 30%, 3rd gen IC40%, 4th gen IC 50%, 5th gen IC 60%, 6th gen IC 70%, 7th gen IC 75%, 8th gen IC 80%, 9th gen IC 87%, 10 gen IC 89% 11th gen IC 90, 12th gen IC 92%, 13th gen IC 93% 14th gen IC 94%, 15 gen IC 95%, 16th gen IC 96% 17th gen IC 97%, 18th gen IC 98%, 19 gen IC 98.8% 20 gen IC 98.6%. Now JIM there is my method for 20 gen. POST YOUR'S.

[colt39]

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Jim as usual let me show you how DUMB you are. Ihave never single mated but one hen, is correct, from there, i breed stags and pullets. Each gen, I have two pens, AS I STATED BEFORE. One pen has ONE stag and ONE pullett. The other pen has ONE stag and atleast 6 pullets, all full B-S. The single mated pen, produces the next gen. The second pen is for what ever I choose them for. This is continued each gen. 1gen, IC 25%, 2nd gen IC 30%, 3rd gen IC40%, 4th gen IC 50%, 5th gen IC 60%, 6th gen IC 70%, 7th gen IC 75%, 8th gen IC 80%, 9th gen IC 87%, 10 gen IC 89% 11th gen IC 90, 12th gen IC 92%, 13th gen IC 93% 14th gen IC 94%, 15 gen IC 95%, 16th gen IC 96% 17th gen IC 97%, 18th gen IC 98%, 19 gen IC 98.8% 20 gen IC 98.6%. Now JIM there is my method for 20 gen. POST YOUR'S.

I knew you would come up with something lol.

You plainy said you never single mated but one pair. ONE pair. The very first pair you use to lock them so now that you are caught and everybody catches on, you make up this bs and change it.

Scatterbred fowl wirh scattered IC is all you have.

[Golden Buddha]

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Jim as usual let me show you how DUMB you are. Ihave never single mated but one hen, is correct, from there, i breed stags and pullets. Each gen, I have two pens, AS I STATED BEFORE. One pen has ONE stag and ONE pullett. The other pen has ONE stag and atleast 6 pullets, all full B-S. The single mated pen, produces the next gen. The second pen is for what ever I choose them for. This is continued each gen. 1gen, IC 25%, 2nd gen IC 30%, 3rd gen IC40%, 4th gen IC 50%, 5th gen IC 60%, 6th gen IC 70%, 7th gen IC 75%, 8th gen IC 80%, 9th gen IC 87%, 10 gen IC 89% 11th gen IC 90, 12th gen IC 92%, 13th gen IC 93% 14th gen IC 94%, 15 gen IC 95%, 16th gen IC 96% 17th gen IC 97%, 18th gen IC 98%, 19 gen IC 98.8% 20 gen IC 98.6%. Now JIM there is my method for 20 gen. POST YOUR'S.

I PMed Ray seeking advice, My Mentor Carl Saia did not taught me to counter the effect of Inbreeding degeneration. Well i just got the answer and Ray shared to all of us who wished to listen to him! My CoIs are as closed as Ray's, i don't have to compute beyond the 5th gen. All i have to do is insure the health of my flock. Then do the "intelligent selection", as per his advice.
I have that last "chip" to my breeding puzzle, For me, at least! From here i can go on by my self, i'm done with the researches that i need! I'm forever GRATEFULL to you, MR. RAY BOLES!!!



Golden Buddha
Member

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 246
Thanks: 27
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts

Re: IC
My question to you is about heterosis. i have the outcross already, so at what point will i do the incrossing, as i'm into my 5th gen. My CoI, i used wright's equation, is in the range of 60-64%, in your experienced when did you perform incrossing to your lines?

[RayBoles]

Jim the only way I know when a trait is FIXED, is when each stag in the last gen all show the trait. How do you know when they are FIXED. How do YOU know if it is homozygous or still is heterzygous. 90% of the time, I let nature select for me. Jim I will let you answer how this is possible. POST 1262 IS DFC method. Is this your method. In post 1586 you said you breed TWO strains. When did you make them ????

[colt39]

Originally Posted by RayBoles

If you can,t fight them pure then they are not worth keeping. As for single mating if your fowls gene pool is close enough the hens should produce so mutch alike that the time and effort of single mating would not be necessary. In 15 years I have never single mated a hen except the one I used to origianaly lock the genes and I have never breed a cock that has been fought. And I have not seen any adverse affect in my fowl as yet. I rarely get to fight a bird because I have not had a cock in about 5 years. My birds are all sold before they reach that age. Some time I have 2 or 3 blemished birds that I get to hack.

GB, sure hope you single mated your fowl so you know who is carrying what instead of breeding the way your idol breeds!

Like I said Ray, I will just say they have a double relationship if you will sleep better!

[RayBoles]

Post 2136 But I guess it is more fun to pick my favorite multi-winner mongrel and match it to hens from these three lines and see how they go? Or get some of the latest craze bloodline and see how they infuse into these lines....
Sounds like he has discovered how many have breed for decades.

[colt39]

Just because they all show it, that does not mean it is fixed. It is fixed when they all show it & also pass it to ALL of their offspring!

[Golden Buddha]

Originally Posted by colt39

GB, sure hope you single mated your fowl so you know who is carrying what instead of breeding the way your idol breeds!

Like I said Ray, I will just say they have a double relationship if you will sleep better!

Thanks for the reminder Jim, yeah i flock/pen mate and at the same time single mate them!!!...........

Oohhh...need to do maintenance again, damn it................

[Golden Buddha]

Another Fock Mating experiment...some bullstags were tested and gave a good result before the moulting season...just to give me a basis wether to repeat this flock mating............

[cnucum]

GB, my friend, those are some mighty fine looking GLH fowls...


These two statements made by Mr. Ray Boles are kinda a "red flag" for me, especially with all the "firm" statements he made before about his breeding methods and that he "sells" fowls...

"The other pen has ONE stag and atleast 6 pullets, all full B-S. The single mated pen, produces the next gen. The second pen is for what ever I choose them for."

"90% of the time, I let nature select for me."

Makes me wonder, if I bought fowl from him, would I be getting his "pure, fixed, locked, 98% COI fowls"?

[BantonSpur]

Just a series of stupid questions from a passing-by moron:

1. What is our goal in breeding? Is improvement of the current breed one of them?

2. Are the long knife fowls 20 years ago better that the long knife fowls of today?

3. Are the stocks of 20 years ago still competitive today in the big circuits? Like, are the hatches, sweaters, roundheads, whitehackles, kelsos, etc. of 20 years ago still competitive today without any infusion whatsoever?

3. Why should anybody be interested in maintaining a line with a very high coI if that is the same as it was 20 years ago and has not even proven itself in the major circuits in the long knife?

4. Is there really a breed that can take 20 generations of continuous brother-sister mating generation after generation?

These questions give this thread much much more entertainment value rather that useful information... my apologies, just my stupid opinion...

[cnucum]

I don't know about others... By why would anyone maintain a fowl that is not winning or competitive?

It is a given that when you want to maintain or keep a line of fowls is because it's winning or competitive, that should be out of the question...

[colt39]

GB, I do the same thing. I single mate my future brood fowl but pen mate my grades. I put a cock with all sisters for the grades.

Chris, he plainly stated, he has only single mated one hen. I remember arguing with him about this a few years ago too! He claimed it was a wast of time.

[Golden Buddha]

I don't know other's objective too, for me i breed fowls for competition as i'm not in the selling business.

This is a specimen i strived to produce and hope to consistently produce: a 6 time winner battlecross of Sweater & "Cassius Clay"!....

[cnucum]

Originally Posted by colt39

Chris, he plainly stated, he has only single mated one hen. I remember arguing with him about this a few years ago too! He claimed it was a wast of time.

sir Jim, as the guy on food network said, "Mother Shocker!"...

Ray Boles fowls... high IC but "mother nature selected"... hhhhmmm....

[FILAMEX]

Originally Posted by Golden Buddha

Thanks for the reminder Jim, yeah i flock/pen mate and at the same time single mate them!!!...........

Oohhh...need to do maintenance again, damn it................

Wow....very nice look alike hens you got there Mr. GB. If I may ask, are they all 4th generation net sisters? Thanks

[Golden Buddha]

[QUOTE=cnucum;4233944]GB, my friend, those are some mighty fine looking GLH fowls...

QUOTE]


How'd Friend Chris, Thanks for the compliment...actually the hens are my "cassius clays", the BC is a winner MS Hatch black, from a Friend, but he traded it for 4 sweaterXcassius stags. OUCH!!!

Somehow, he reproduced some good bullstags, lets see if he continue to be a good producer and get my investment back, hehehe...........

[colt39]

Originally Posted by Golden Buddha

I don't know other's objective too, for me i breed fowls for competition as i'm not in the selling business.

This is a specimen i strived to produce and hope to consistently produce: a 6 time winner battlecross of Sweater & "Cassius Clay"!....

Can you tell me what the difference between breeding for selling & breeding for competing would be? Just curious since you have said this more than once if I remember right.

[FILAMEX]

Originally Posted by Golden Buddha

Another Fock Mating experiment...some bullstags were tested and gave a good result before the moulting season...just to give me a basis wether to repeat this flock mating............

Same question as above Mr. GB, if you don't mind. Are they all 4th generation nest brother - sisters from a brother X sister parent? Thanks again.

[Golden Buddha]

Originally Posted by colt39

Can you tell me what the difference between breeding for selling & breeding for competing would be? Just curious since you have said this more than once if I remember right.

Jim, i'm not going to debate this with you, as they are self explanatory!

Good night to Everyone..............

[Golden Buddha]

Originally Posted by FILAMEX

Same question as above Mr. GB, if you don't mind. Are they all 4th generation nest brother - sisters from a brother X sister parent? Thanks again.

ohh before i hit the sack let me answer Friend Filamex.....i used trap nest, so it does not matter wether the hens are full nest sisters. When i Inbreed i use a Brother for BC...if i Crossbreed, i used another line of BC like the MS Black BC above....'hope this helps.......good night Filamex

[FILAMEX]

Originally Posted by Golden Buddha

ohh before i hit the sack let me answer Friend Filamex.....i used trap nest, so it does not matter wether the hens are full nest sisters. When i Inbreed i use a Brother for BC...if i Crossbreed, i used another line of BC like the MS Black BC above....'hope this helps.......good night Filamex

I see...so he is a MS Black BC...thought he is a "C. Clay" Hatch. Thanks and good night Mr. GB.

[Golden Buddha]

[quote=Golden Buddha;4233975]

Originally Posted by cnucum

GB, my friend, those are some mighty fine looking GLH fowls...

QUOTE]


How'd Friend Chris, Thanks for the compliment...actually the hens are my "cassius clays", the BC is a winner MS Hatch black, from a Friend, but he traded it for 4 sweaterXcassius stags. OUCH!!!

Somehow, he reproduced some good bullstags, lets see if he continue to be a good producer and get my investment back, hehehe...........

Originally Posted by FILAMEX

I see...so he is a MS Black BC...thought he is a "C. Clay" Hatch. Thanks and good night Mr. GB.

Hehehe, put you sh1t together Filamex.....i know who you are!!!

[colt39]

Originally Posted by Golden Buddha

Jim, i'm not going to debate this with you, as they are self explanatory!

Good night to Everyone..............

Did not ask to debate anything. You made a comment & I just asked what you meant by it, that is all. It was not self explanatory to me. I was just curious what you as an individual thought about the difference in the two because your explanation & mine or others may be different.

Either way the quality has to be there. But when you sell a bird, he not only has to be good, he has to reproduce him self. Breeding to sell is much harder than breeding for competition. If you want happy customers lol!

[FILAMEX]

[quote=Golden Buddha;4233995]

Originally Posted by Golden Buddha

Hehehe, put you sh1t together Filamex.....i know who you are!!!

Hey Mr. GB. I just admire breeders with uniform fowls. This is a justification that they are working towards something special. Your "C. Clay" hens above are just like pea in a pod and awesome at that, with regard to conformity & station. Just wondering if you were referring to them as your 4th gen BXS materials that you're using for your 5th gen BXS mating.
Anyway, not sure if I kow you in person but, just wondering how you knew me. Do we have mutual friends from Angeles City, Pampanga, Phil?
Take care...