Knife Setting

[joey bravo]

I got confused when I saw this pics presenting knife setting for Filipino and Hawaian Socket knives.

The gaffer (pinoy) I know tie his knives on a Hawaian setting, so what do you think guys.

Hawaiian Setting.

[joey bravo]

What your opinion guys? Ano ba yung orig na pinoy.

Filipino Setting:

[Kidd Sentencia]

Joey, by looking at the front toes, the position of the foot is tilted to the right. If the foot is straight as if a cock is standing up, I see no wrong in the way the knife is tied.

My non-gaffer view...

Kidd

[joey bravo]

Sir Kidd here another pic fulldrop filipino setting.

[Kidd Sentencia]

That is more "in"...then again, the fighting style of a cock may adjust the gaffer's alignment of the knife.

I'm sure our experts will post soon...heheheh.

Kidd

[MonjSan72]

joey, i noticed that you're using socket knife. i got a chance to tie a socket knife on our cock in a derby in roligon last june; i noticed that if u tie the knife with the filipino setting, it gives a much damaging result against it's opponent. but then again, the wiapon is only as good as the one who wields it. i hope i had h
elped u in some way. :hippie:

[Matt Dunne]

Joey
The socket knives you are showing there are from Allan Ray if I am not mistaken. His settings for the fulldrop filippino set to the middle or just to the righ of the vent and is great for the high braking fowl and are great for cutting in the air. when the bird is on the ground IMHO they dont cut as well .
His fulldrop Hawaian set is set to the left of the vent and IMHO is a better all arround knife set. it works both on the ground as well as while flying. it is very close to what I have seen set on the fork knives by knivemen in the Philippines.
Cheer Mate hope it helps
Matt

That last picture is of the regular set not the phil. set. As you can see it is set way to the inside, the phil. set is set outside more inline with the prop-toe.

Brian

[peatree]

Weight for weight fork knives are generally much lighter than socket knives, one of the big difference! to verify it buy an egg weigher to see it for yourselves .Hints to set a knife is given... as usual ...privately and for ur eyes only!

Joey,
Those are socket knives(adjustable to some people since it has a big hub). Looks like the first pics are of the 11:00 o'clock setting, and the third one looks like a 12:00 o'clock set. This(the first pic) is the kind of american socket knife that I patterned my FilAm fork knives from. What I don't like with the socket knife is that you have very little room for adjustments. An example is if you have one knife that is a full drop(base of blade is 3/4" below the hub), and the rooster you're heeling has a low spur, then the base of the blade would be way below the prop toe. And if you have a 1/2" drop and you're heeling a rooster with a higher spur, then the base of your knife would be above the proptoe. What you want in a knife is the base of your blade is ALWAYS side by side(inner side) of the proptoe, like the traditional Fil. fork knife . You say, then use the one with the 3/4" drop on the rooster with the higher spur and the half drop on the one with a lower spur. Yes, that should be the case, but the lenght of the blades are another factor to consider. One thing more is, when you want to adjust it from side to side, their is not much room. Another thing I don't like with the socket knife is that their is always a little "play" (not secured very well) after tying it. When I was messing around with this kind of knife before, I 've always wanted to secure it like the traditional Fil. fork knife or the Mexican fork short knife. It is very important to me that a knife does not have any play at all when tied. It's a contributory factor to a very solid blow. These are the very reasons why the FilAm fork knife was developed. filamforks

[earan]

Nice post filamforks! I also conform to your observation/s on socket knife.
Just would like to clarify about the setting orientation i.e. as 11 o’clock and 12 o’clock it seems to me that the point of reference is the one holding the rooster and not the mananare. If the point of reference is the mananare, then it should have been either 5 o’clock or 6 o’clock orientation. Just my thought. Please educate me on this.

[Draven51501]

filamforks,

the first picture is 11:00? it's not 1:00?

Earan,
The point of reference when I'm talking about the knife set is not the gaffer(mananare) or the handler. It is about how the knife is made/constructed with its blade set. With the socket knife, you put the flange (with leather spread out) flat on a table with the back of the blade facing you. Now peek at the tip and see where it's pointing at. If it is slanting toward the left, that's an 11:00 o'clock set, if it is pointing directly above the hub, then it's a 12:00 o'clock set. You can't make a socket knife with a 1:00 0'clock set cause it's gonna be way too deep in when tied on a roosters leg. In contrast, the traditional Fil. fork knife is usually made with the 12:00 o'clock to 1:00 o'clock blade settings, isn't it? If I'm not mistaken, I think that the 1 o'clock set is what is refered to as the "esqualado". Hope this help. Let me know if you need more clarification. Thanks by the way for the compliment about my post. filamforks

[joey bravo]

Sometime fulldrop creates problem on low spurr or small birds. Some uses 3/4 drop. Which is better mga padre's.

[earan]

Filamforks,

What I have in mind when mananare says 11, 12 or 1 o’clock is that they are referring to the blade setting or alignment when knife is tied to a rooster’s leg. Thanks for the clarifications. I just learned it from you.

[Kidd Sentencia]

Isn't whatever is direct to you is the 12:00...then one clik to the right is your 1:00...vice versa, to the left is 11:00.

So, in tari...it can really be confusing to use this o'clock thing...stick to in or out, high or low...that would be easier for me to understand, heheheh.

Kidd

the hawain is set like my filipino knifes. the filipino you are showing is set like a gaff in my opinion.i think if u have a rooster that hits more from a 9 aclock to 10 aclock angle then the hawain knife u are showing would suit him better. but if he throws his blows over the top more say from10 to 11 i think the filipino u are showing would suit him better.

When all these knives of different designs are tied on the roosters leg, they are usually angled similarly, or in one direction. How to aim the point of the knife though is different when tying them. The bullseye for us Pinoys is usually the center of the vent(a...hole), isn't it? With the socket knives, they aim it toward the elbow . So for a Pinoy gaffer, it's up to his descretion whether to aim the point at the bullseye or left of the vent( that would be @ 9:00 o'clock), or to the right of the vent, and that is 3:00 o'clock. The 11:00- 1:00 setting when tying the knife could be applicable when using a socket knife, the center of the elbow being the 12:00 o'clock reference point with the spur/hub as the pivot point. So obviously, there are different ways of tying a knife. I think our(we Pinoys) term for this is, "kanya kanyang sipat". Anyway, they all can kill and that's the main objective.
Effectiveness though is a different story, IMHO. filamforks

[joey bravo]

This is the response I got from the knife "master" himself on setting his socket knives and I quote:

"There is no secret way to tie the socketknife. You just wrap the leathers square and tie. Simple! Now of course you must pack or pad the rooster's leg using Dr. Scholl's Moleskin (you can buy this at most any Drug Store ... used for treating corns on your feet) .. pack above and below the spur and just enough around the spur to make the socket fit snug. Then fit the knife down on the leg and wrap the leathers square. Tie around the leathers using tie string. Wrap the string with some electricians tape and that's it! The knife is self aligning."

Is it true it is self aligning?
:hat:

It's like a gaff, once you tie it its aligned the way the maker made it. The socket only goes on one way while a fork is very adjustable.

JB,
It is true that it is self aligning as Brian described it, but the big
question is, IS IT THE RIGHT/CORRECT ALIGNMENT ALL THE TIME?
In my experience, it's a big NO. IMO, a knife maker should design and make quality knives that have versatility, and are easy to be set/tied properly by a competent profesional knife tier/gaffer for best results. It should be compared like a rifle. The gun maker put the sights, but the sharpshooter makes the neccessary adjustments in actual combat or in shooting competitions for best results. filamforks

my opinion is that a knife set to the inner joint should be alligned pretty close to his vent . with socket knifes i put them on a leg that is cut off a rooster and see where it is pointing. i think this can be the factor between winning and losing.i always make shur it is lined up with the inner joint for maxium cutting.

In order to know which is the best setting for your chickens you might as well try all the setting (11,12,1,1:30) to find out which best suits your roosters fighting style on what you are breeding.

if which one works best for you then that is what you will use.
knife can be very effective if you know which suits best for the chicken & the gaffer. be it fork, adjustable or socket.

[Kidd Sentencia]

I think you just hit the nail there August_Moon. No wonder knife makers make different knife designs to include the curvatures of their knives. Well, the big factor on that are the customers too of course.

IMHO, it will be better to use one way of securing the knife on the cock's foot with matching knife-fighting style of a cock than adjusting the way it is tied to conform to the same.

Veteran gaffers in CF like Sundowner already said he adjusts the type of his knife per the fighting style of his cock. Sunny is one heck of a veteran cocker whose shoes will never fit mine...heheheh.

Kidd

[peatree]

As Chili_SM said

Not necessarily in MM but right in your area, Just do it! (Nike)

...And then you'll find out all above post are just mere approximations!

If you base it assly, its an aproximation
If base it on the clock it is an approximation...
If you base it by fighting style ..it is a clear approximation...

There is a method that is scientific and flawless!

You will find it out soon,Nike

Walk the talk and if you do, you shud know why I said so or just stay with your approximations that works for you and you feel contented, after all you are happy on what you had been doing.

Talking is just a learning stage...

Learn by doing it and evaluate what you'd done and talk again then do it again then talk again and when you do not talk at all again you will be contented too of what you are doing!

Hr hr hr !

thanks Kidd just wanted to contibute something i learn from experience!

August Moon

Kidd,
There is no doubt that Sonny is a very competent, well respected professional knife tier. You said that he adjusts his knife according to the fighting style of his rooster. My question though is, does all his roosters have the same fighting style? I don't think so. So I'm very sure that he makes or prefers knives(fork knife is my guess here) that are very adjustable so he can fine tune it easily with the padding(sapin). But in case his roosters fight all the same, and fighting style is his only basis in tying the knife then, I'm sure that he can do it with a socket knife(if he like sockets). And that would be bad. Cause if you go to him and say "Sonny, pakitari mo naman itong nokma ko? He might say, sorry pare, socket knife itong gamit ko eh baka iba ang fighting style ng nokma mo"......hehehe. Well, just let him use your fork knife....hehehe. Got the drift? The point here is, a good knife should have versatility/adjustablity so any profesional gaffer can tie it according to his/her descretion, or as he sees fit to ANY rooster without problem. Economy wise(especially for the gaffers in the pit) one fork knife is cheaper than 2 socket knives. IMHO, you can heel any rooster with about 5 pieces of fork knives(different sizes), but you can't do the same with the socket knives. filamforks

August-moon,
When you said, "you might as well try all the different settings(11,12,1:00,1:30), are you reffering it to how the blade is set(porma) or how it is aimed or aligned when tying? Just trying to clarify. filamforks

is there any rules in the phils that says you cant use a socket knife?

filamfork,

i think as a knifemaker & a gaffer you know what i meant! i think you have mentioned them up there with your reply to "earan"

August Moon

[peatree]

For the interested beginners, The only way to learn knife setting is to really observe who is the good knife tyier in your area. How to spot a good knife tyier is a lot of hardwork and patience and record keeping. A good knife tyier is a consistent winner. why I said this , simple a lot of "professional knife tyers are pretenders or just "locked" in their conventional method and wud always blamed the chicken or the "luck factor" if it cant inflict mortal injury given the chance to hit.

A good knife tyier always kills the opponent chiken in less than 20 seconds given the chance to hit clear singly or multiple hit..too bad the WSD 2001 showed alot of poor heeling performance considering the figters used were powerful and strong.

Just keep on heeling and open ones eyes...two of my chicken today seemed to lose and wounded first but two of them won because my chicken always delivered a killing blow while the oponents delivered a not killing hit I am pretty sure a heeling imperfection cause them to lose. Also these opponents are bigger and taller leading a 6 to 10 me, the dehado. My 2nd fight was a left leg baldado so I challenge the bigger and better breed to heel his chicken at the right side since my chickens left is baldado. So they fell into my game..heeling advantage! They hurt my chickens first but my chickens just do not hurt their chicken but kill their chicken!

This is not a bragging post but just an eye opener to those who claimed to be a beginner and I advice the expert to ignore this post!

I just hope beginners wud start their heeling standard right! coz you are surely the future of heeling "professional".

Now I am talking about my walk...share your walk too! As an inspiration to those who wud like to learn this art.