Ray Boles - Page 9 - Sabong, Cockfighting and Gamefowl Posting Pit

MONGOOSE · June 13th, 2012, 12:25 PM

Mr Boles "pure" fowl or fowl of predictable traits are useful, but they are better when bred to a family that compliments them and adds "high bred vigor". Very tuff to whip and less restricted to only primary traits you bred into them. . I KNOW. Your family of pures are better than fowl of your pures crossed to compliment them or any other fowl for that matter. You are the king of salesmanship. Cause "no one" has fowl of your standards. Great sales pitch at an angle that is probably true.

GG Crasher · June 13th, 2012, 04:08 PM

if we can breed a seed fowls and at the same time as a a warrior i think it is really so much the better, than breed a seed fowls for the purpose of cross breeding them to other seed fowls just to create a battle cross...save time & money at least...

OR GALLO · June 13th, 2012, 09:11 PM

For all the ones that say B/S mating products can't compete, 33 generations breeding B/S of his lemons.

Lazaro "Bebeng" Zulueta Jr.mpg - YouTube

MONGOOSE · June 13th, 2012, 11:43 PM

B/s matings can produce great birds. Never thought it wouldn't. Seen if for myself.
There side effects to B/s matings I've seen are -- weak immune system, weak bones, crooked breasts, skin deformations, crooked toes, early onset of arthritis, poor vision, NERVOUSNESS, over abundance of aggressivness and/or defensiveness, brittle feathers.
If done right will improve reflexes, speed, intelligence, accuracy,and athleticism and even though you can get these improved characteristics I've noticed that it doesn't really improve there winning percentage so much. They look impressive as hell, but no win. why? I don't know.
Its seems to me that the next fad coming down is "22 GENERATIONS B/S INBRED FOWL". Don't forget. This is tuff to prove without having DNA tests, but I guess if a breeder is willing to do this it would be worth it. If his fowl are winning.

OR GALLO · June 13th, 2012, 11:54 PM

Yeah what works for some might not for others and at the end of the day they are your birds and your money so breed them as you like.

MONGOOSE · June 14th, 2012, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by or gallo

yeah what works for some might not for others and at the end of the day they are your birds and your money so breed them as you like.

i 100% agree. Do what works for you.

jamiepaul · June 14th, 2012, 05:09 AM

mr.king secretariat did produce,not through his sons but through his daughters, his daughters produced some of the best stallions in the past 25 years.and to mr.boles seems to me everybody is knocking on your door to buy your fowl.

RayBoles · June 14th, 2012, 06:01 AM

mongoose, would you give us an example of breeding fowl that complement each other, sorry but I do not know what your talking about. And would you also post your breeding program. Tell us what you breed, their genetic make up, what will happen when you cross tham. What works for me is knowing what makes it work. GG Crasher, good thinking, these guys just don't understand, that you can make seed fowl that can perform. Problem is, their so called pure fowl could not be fought. Why would anyone buy brood fowl that could not be fought. Mongoose you made a statement about pure fowl and fowl of predictable traits and how to breed them. Exactly where did you see these fowl? You guys just post your opinion, you have NO scientific fact to support the way you breed. ANYONE,ANYONE reading this post, post us a breeding program and how it works. I have a program, I give genetic reasons why, I have explained it as simple as I can, is there not one game fowl breeder than can do the same. If there is , please do so. Mongoose, just how many generations did you breed B-S to see all these inbreeding problems? Also whats your point. I have seen the same problems in other peoples fowl that did NO inbreeding. Again what's your point. I never said Pure would guarentee success, the way most breed, can not guarentee ANYTHING. Pen and pray.

MONGOOSE · June 14th, 2012, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

mongoose, would you give us an example of breeding fowl that complement each other, sorry but I do not know what your talking about. And would you also post your breeding program. Tell us what you breed, their genetic make up, what will happen when you cross tham. What works for me is knowing what makes it work. GG Crasher, good thinking, these guys just don't understand, that you can make seed fowl that can perform. Problem is, their so called pure fowl could not be fought. Why would anyone buy brood fowl that could not be fought. Mongoose you made a statement about pure fowl and fowl of predictable traits and how to breed them. Exactly where did you see these fowl? You guys just post your opinion, you have NO scientific fact to support the way you breed. ANYONE,ANYONE reading this post, post us a breeding program and how it works. I have a program, I give genetic reasons why, I have explained it as simple as I can, is there not one game fowl breeder than can do the same. If there is , please do so. Mongoose, just how many generations did you breed B-S to see all these inbreeding problems? Also whats your point. I have seen the same problems in other peoples fowl that did NO inbreeding. Again what's your point. I never said Pure would guarentee success, the way most breed, can not guarentee ANYTHING. Pen and pray.

My mentor taught me about B/S matings. He was very succesfull in high dollar mains. So I have seen first hand how it works. Regardless of what you think Mr. Boles, I'm not the one SELLING an EXTREME idea. I believe all types of breeding have there place. YOU DON'T. You have cornered the market. You happen to be the ONLY guy I know who inbreeds b/s for 15 plus generations. What a COINCIDENCE. You have quite a sales pitch and a great angle. Cudos to your business sense. Your way ahead of me sahib. Your not going to convince me its the ONLY way, BUT it is a component to a recipe.
You keep insisting that you have fowl that have been b/s mated for 18+ generations straight. YOU CAN'T PROVE THIS other than your word. Once again, what a brilliant mind you have.
" I'm not a breeder, but I pay attention".

gamecock96 · June 14th, 2012, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Men do you not understand why man created PURE. It was to create animals and fowl for a purpose, performance for one and to have subjects that would pass these traits on. Homozygousity fixes traits. The fowl I chose to breed had all the traits I was looking for, if I had breed them the way you guys breed, they would have been gone many years ago. They would have no consistancy and I would be like you, keep a few and kill the rest. Do you not understand, that when you have a pure family, you can breed in any direction you wish and still have some degree of homozygousity, it will just vary according to how you breed them. Would some one PLEASE tell us how to breed for performance and keep it consistant and how to maintain it. I am always willing to learn, but doubt that I will hear any thing new. Gamecock96 did you mean breed a horse to F? You SEE most of the horses breed today are already PURE. Wonder why anyone would want to make a pure horse. Must have had a reason.

Yes Sir, breeding horse to F is what i mean.... So in short, nobody bred brother sister on a horse forever , or have they? Please enlighten us.... In any other form of animal, they always try to create something new...Why? For improvement. Meat type chickens get bigger and bigger faster. Used to be 45 days , now they are harvested at 28 days...Layer type chickens though you cannot prolong the laying period, has been laying on a more productive scale. New breed or strains or whatchamacallit.......... I do understand your logic of breeding pure from your pair from 19 yrs ago or something, but does it have its real value in the gamecock COMPETITION as much as you want it perceived?? Like what i always read..... I want something that wins NOW and not YESTERYEARS... though i always look back at where i came from, not to hang on it but to learn from what i have gone through.......

Al

BACKYARDBREEDER · June 14th, 2012, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

mongoose, would you give us an example of breeding fowl that complement each other, sorry but I do not know what your talking about. And would you also post your breeding program. Tell us what you breed, their genetic make up, what will happen when you cross tham. What works for me is knowing what makes it work. GG Crasher, good thinking, these guys just don't understand, that you can make seed fowl that can perform. Problem is, their so called pure fowl could not be fought. Why would anyone buy brood fowl that could not be fought. Mongoose you made a statement about pure fowl and fowl of predictable traits and how to breed them. Exactly where did you see these fowl? You guys just post your opinion, you have NO scientific fact to support the way you breed. ANYONE,ANYONE reading this post, post us a breeding program and how it works. I have a program, I give genetic reasons why, I have explained it as simple as I can, is there not one game fowl breeder than can do the same. If there is , please do so. Mongoose, just how many generations did you breed B-S to see all these inbreeding problems? Also whats your point. I have seen the same problems in other peoples fowl that did NO inbreeding. Again what's your point. I never said Pure would guarentee success, the way most breed, can not guarentee ANYTHING. Pen and pray.

have you tried to fight your inbred sweaters in GAFF ?

nicogamefarm · June 14th, 2012, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OR GALLO

For all the ones that say B/S mating products can't compete, 33 generations breeding B/S of his lemons. Lazaro "Bebeng" Zulueta Jr.mpg - YouTube

just wondering how many will run if he fights his said pure with short gaff??

guardia civil · June 14th, 2012, 11:12 PM

Test their gameness and cutting in the 1 inch short knife or even in tougher Cuarto.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=346879588713025

OR GALLO · June 15th, 2012, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicogamefarm

just wondering how many will run if he fights his said pure with short gaff??

Not sure how many. Just as I'm not sure how mine would do in that style as mine are only shown in Mexico. But if he's had them that long they are probably working for him in the Philippine style. Otherwise why would he be spending time and money.

Guardia what's the average time a show lasts at a 1/4?

guardia civil · June 15th, 2012, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OR GALLO

Not sure how many. Just as I'm not sure how mine would do in that style as mine are only shown in Mexico. But if he's had them that long they are probably working for him in the Philippine style. Otherwise why would he be spending time and money.

Guardia what's the average time a show lasts at a 1/4?

A good cutting rooster, 5-7 minutes.At 1/4 inch, you really need a better conditioned fowl.

RayBoles · June 15th, 2012, 06:34 AM

Just for the record, this year was the 22nd generation. If you don't understand, after all that has been posted on the subject, what do you under stand? For the record, my fowl have competed in the US using gaff, in the PI in long knife, in mexico in short knife. Where have youres competed? All I have asked is, what is your method, tell us how it works. Atleast I have a method, I have a goal and I know what is happening each step. It is apparent, you don't have a method. If you did all you have to do is post it. Or Gallow if you are ever in Cotija, stop by the farm and ask my partener to fight some of my fowl in what ever weapon you choose. Use all weapons if you wish. Then post how many ran. If you guys knew anything about breeding you would know inbreeding DOES NOT CREATE RUNNERS. There are people reading this post that have seen my fowl fight in all weapons. How many did they see run. How about the man who posted on this thread, he saw 12 brothers, win 5 , 5 cock derbies in a row. There was 12 that did not run. I don't think I have to prove anything to anyone. Your argument has gotten so poor, all you can say is prove it. gamecock96 there are animals and fowl breed to F every day. Gamecock96 were the poultry improvements made using scientific research, or did they use your KEEN EYE method. If you crossed somethi g and it was better, what do you do then. If there is anyone who would like to discuss breeding at an intelligent level, I will do so gladly, but I have no further need to discuss personal opinion. Everything I have ever posted has scientific backing. I will be awaiting your post on your breeding method, so we can discuss if you have a method at all.

nicogamefarm · June 15th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Just for the record, this year was the 22nd generation. If you don't understand, after all that has been posted on the subject, what do you under stand? For the record, my fowl have competed in the US using gaff, in the PI in long knife, in mexico in short knife. Where have youres competed? All I have asked is, what is your method, tell us how it works. Atleast I have a method, I have a goal and I know what is happening each step. It is apparent, you don't have a method. If you did all you have to do is post it. Or Gallow if you are ever in Cotija, stop by the farm and ask my partener to fight some of my fowl in what ever weapon you choose. Use all weapons if you wish. Then post how many ran. If you guys knew anything about breeding you would know inbreeding DOES NOT CREATE RUNNERS. There are people reading this post that have seen my fowl fight in all weapons. How many did they see run. How about the man who posted on this thread, he saw 12 brothers, win 5 , 5 cock derbies in a row. There was 12 that did not run. I don't think I have to prove anything to anyone. Your argument has gotten so poor, all you can say is prove it. gamecock96 there are animals and fowl breed to F every day. Gamecock96 were the poultry improvements made using scientific research, or did they use your KEEN EYE method. If you crossed somethi g and it was better, what do you do then. If there is anyone who would like to discuss breeding at an intelligent level, I will do so gladly, but I have no further need to discuss personal opinion. Everything I have ever posted has scientific backing. I will be awaiting your post on your breeding method, so we can discuss if you have a method at all.

ok show some picture the said pure ?????

OR GALLO · June 15th, 2012, 07:46 AM

Mr Boles I don't doubt the ability of your birds as I've witness them win down in Michoacan Mexico. Was just answering nicogamefarms question he asked me about that video I posted on here that guy is on his 33rd generation breeding B/S. But thanks for the invitation.And I've seen pictures of your birds at your farm and they look nice and real healthy.

gamecock96 · June 15th, 2012, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Just for the record, this year was the 22nd generation. If you don't understand, after all that has been posted on the subject, what do you under stand? For the record, my fowl have competed in the US using gaff, in the PI in long knife, in mexico in short knife. Where have youres competed? All I have asked is, what is your method, tell us how it works. Atleast I have a method, I have a goal and I know what is happening each step. It is apparent, you don't have a method. If you did all you have to do is post it. Or Gallow if you are ever in Cotija, stop by the farm and ask my partener to fight some of my fowl in what ever weapon you choose. Use all weapons if you wish. Then post how many ran. If you guys knew anything about breeding you would know inbreeding DOES NOT CREATE RUNNERS. There are people reading this post that have seen my fowl fight in all weapons. How many did they see run. How about the man who posted on this thread, he saw 12 brothers, win 5 , 5 cock derbies in a row. There was 12 that did not run. I don't think I have to prove anything to anyone. Your argument has gotten so poor, all you can say is prove it. gamecock96 there are animals and fowl breed to F every day. Gamecock96 were the poultry improvements made using scientific research, or did they use your KEEN EYE method. If you crossed somethi g and it was better, what do you do then. If there is anyone who would like to discuss breeding at an intelligent level, I will do so gladly, but I have no further need to discuss personal opinion. Everything I have ever posted has scientific backing. I will be awaiting your post on your breeding method, so we can discuss if you have a method at all.

I am not sure if you are asking ME or anyone else about the breeding method. But mine is simple. I have had my fowls for a long time and i do inbreeding, linebreeding, occassional B-S method but i base my selection of fowls to what i see and observe in them. I select the fighting style and other characteristics that are important to me. Hens and pullets, i look for sister of winners... For me, you have to know your fowls. Doesn't matter if they are not siblings. For me, it is not the fact that they are brothers or sisters per se, it is the characteristics that you are breeding. Let me site an example, If i have a family of high breakers that consistently fight like that since i have been breeding this characteristic in them, and i infused outside blood from lets say friend Pedro who also breeds fowls that are high breakers almost the same fighting style but not related to mine. Shouldn't they produce high breakers just because that is the characteristic you are breeding for??

MONGOOSE · June 15th, 2012, 10:38 AM

You've got mail Mr. Boles

chance26 · June 16th, 2012, 04:57 PM

Like everybody else, I'm still waiting Mr. Boles to post pictures or video of his 22nd generation sweaters to silence the critics. I'm sure if a man possesses advanced knowledge in genetics to produce superior fowls that are way above the competition, he definitely can operate a camera/video cam.

RayBoles · June 17th, 2012, 05:17 AM

Chance26 if you want a picture of my fowl , come take one, I sure the hell am not wasting my time to satisfy you. If it still exists, look at my web site. When did I say I had superior fowl. gamecock96 If you had a high breaking stag, you would have to breed him B_S for 5-7 generations to fix that trait, scientific FACT. Breeding two families of the same trait, may never produce it again. This post has been discussed for 7-8 years now, the questions you are askimg have been asked and answered many, many times. Explain the genetics behind the way you breed. You can't just breed a high breaker to a high breaker and get a high breaker. THERE IS ALWAYS A GENETIC REASON FOR WHY. If you don't know how and why, exactly what is your method. Pen and pray. It is apparent some don't want to leard, so why waste the time of those who are willing to. gamecock96 show us how you breed to pass on and how to fix a charestic. chance26, you and my other critics, post a picture of your fowl and their record and prove it. Seems a little childish does it not? Whats your childish point.

OR GALLO · June 17th, 2012, 05:25 AM

Getting back to subject. Mr Boles what lines do you have in Michoacan? my family is there also right by the Airport about 3 hour from cotija. Do you only breed sweaters I saw some last year but they looked like they had some asil so I'm not sure if the guy that bought those crossed something in them. They had a great style. Also do you breed different in Mexico for the birds your partner fights or are they B/S mated?

gamecock96 · June 17th, 2012, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Chance26 if you want a picture of my fowl , come take one, I sure the hell am not wasting my time to satisfy you. If it still exists, look at my web site. When did I say I had superior fowl. gamecock96 If you had a high breaking stag, you would have to breed him B_S for 5-7 generations to fix that trait, scientific FACT. Breeding two families of the same trait, may never produce it again. This post has been discussed for 7-8 years now, the questions you are askimg have been asked and answered many, many times. Explain the genetics behind the way you breed. You can't just breed a high breaker to a high breaker and get a high breaker. THERE IS ALWAYS A GENETIC REASON FOR WHY. If you don't know how and why, exactly what is your method. Pen and pray. It is apparent some don't want to leard, so why waste the time of those who are willing to. gamecock96 show us how you breed to pass on and how to fix a charestic. chance26, you and my other critics, post a picture of your fowl and their record and prove it. Seems a little childish does it not? Whats your childish point.

We are just going around and around. Problem is that you believe that your method is the only one. I already told you that if you have been breeding fowls with the same characteristics, what do you think would come out of the offsprings... Let me site a theory too since all you post are theories without your actual proofs. Lets say you have an empty basket and you put 10 apples there, do you think even if you are not looking and you put your hand inside that basket to get whatever is in there, would you be able to pull out oranges?? Remember, we breed for characteristics. If you breed for flight and all your fowls have flight, you do not need 8 generations just to get the flight in your produce. If you do need 8 generations, then you are taking your long cut .....I understand your B-S method, if you want to breed and purify the F1 or your first cross... That is what you are doing . Purifying your first cross. Nothing more, nothing less. All these talk about your method needs some kind of actual proof of the results. Easier to quote theories or methods but unable to do it in actual practise. If i was YOU, i would post produce from each generations, showing how consistent they all are, and results of the competition they were in. But you know, talk is cheap....Doesn't cost any of us here anything....

Al

slwnstdy · June 17th, 2012, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamecock96

We are just going around and around. Problem is that you believe that your method is the only one. I already told you that if you have been breeding fowls with the same characteristics, what do you think would come out of the offsprings... Let me site a theory too since all you post are theories without your actual proofs. Lets say you have an empty basket and you put 10 apples there, do you think even if you are not looking and you put your hand inside that basket to get whatever is in there, would you be able to pull out oranges?? Remember, we breed for characteristics. If you breed for flight and all your fowls have flight, you do not need 8 generations just to get the flight in your produce. If you do need 8 generations, then you are taking your long cut .....I understand your B-S method, if you want to breed and purify the F1 or your first cross... That is what you are doing . Purifying your first cross. Nothing more, nothing less. All these talk about your method needs some kind of actual proof of the results. Easier to quote theories or methods but unable to do it in actual practise. If i was YOU, i would post produce from each generations, showing how consistent they all are, and results of the competition they were in. But you know, talk is cheap....Doesn't cost any of us here anything....

Al

Morning Al,

How was the gaffing session yesterday?

From what I understand, and based on my experience itself, is you CAN get high flyers from what you are doing. There is no consistency to it, though. Thats because even if you have two high flying famililies the possibility, given the low IC (because of the breeding method) and consequently lower homozygosity, that there are recessive "low flying genes" somewhere there, or there are varioys combinations of recessive traits that will exhibit the opposite of the high flying ability gene. So not all of the offsprings will exhibit high flying traits...

So, our goal, as breeders, IMHO is to eliminate those possibilities so we are more efficient. Now, maybe if you get 5 out 10 high flyers every year that is good enough, then so be it.

I may need to borrow one of those high flying brrodstags of yours

for my grounder family...

cheers, SLW

chance26 · June 17th, 2012, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Chance26 if you want a picture of my fowl , come take one, I sure the hell am not wasting my time to satisfy you. If it still exists, look at my web site. When did I say I had superior fowl. gamecock96 If you had a high breaking stag, you would have to breed him B_S for 5-7 generations to fix that trait, scientific FACT. Breeding two families of the same trait, may never produce it again. This post has been discussed for 7-8 years now, the questions you are askimg have been asked and answered many, many times. Explain the genetics behind the way you breed. You can't just breed a high breaker to a high breaker and get a high breaker. THERE IS ALWAYS A GENETIC REASON FOR WHY. If you don't know how and why, exactly what is your method. Pen and pray. It is apparent some don't want to leard, so why waste the time of those who are willing to. gamecock96 show us how you breed to pass on and how to fix a charestic. chance26, you and my other critics, post a picture of your fowl and their record and prove it. Seems a little childish does it not? Whats your childish point.

Asking you to post pictures of your healthy fowls is not childish Mr. Boles. It can show that BS mating that many breeders have abandoned in just after a few generation actually works in the long haul with proper selection. Mine is more on curiosity rather than criticism. If you can tone down your emotions a little, you will be surprised that many of us take your experience seriously and learn from it. Of course, you should be able to reciprocate and respect others ideas.

vic5.0 · June 17th, 2012, 12:25 PM

I actually read this thread n try to learn some , but I would also like to see some pictures ... Is there any pics anywhere on this thread ..

smokinokie · June 17th, 2012, 01:06 PM

Men it sounds like to me that all on this thread know quite a bit about mating. I think that we are all in to this great sport as compeditors and friends as well. Everyone on here will have their own little recipe for everything to do for their chickens from hatch to show. We cant win a darn thing for our sport as long as we ride each others way of doing things. That is what is important, winning for our chickens, and getting along. We have alot of uncle charlies trying to shut us down completely. That is who we have to fight, not each other.....

RayBoles · June 19th, 2012, 09:41 AM

slwnstdy, at least you have a clue. If they can't understand that, so be it. There is no way in h--- that you can produce cosistant high fliers without a high degree of homozygousity. People who know little about genetics will never understand this. They have no clue as to why things happen. chance26 I don't care how you take my post. Just research every thing I post and see if it does not have scientific backing. I don't want your ideas, I want scientific fact. Not one person has posted his method and geneticaly how it works. This post is mostly about breeding, but there seems to be little participation by others on the subject. gamecock96, do you know the diferance in theory and fact. Post all the derbies you have won. Post anything you have done, you have posted nothing on breeding. If you had a method, it would help. Why don't you just admit, you know nothing about genetic breeding and start a new thread, LIKE TO LIKE OR THE KEEN EYE METHOD. Post any method you use and I will show you with genetic and scientific backing how it can not produce consistancy.

gamecock96 · June 19th, 2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBoles

slwnstdy, at least you have a clue. If they can't understand that, so be it. There is no way in h--- that you can produce cosistant high fliers without a high degree of homozygousity. People who know little about genetics will never understand this. They have no clue as to why things happen. chance26 I don't care how you take my post. Just research every thing I post and see if it does not have scientific backing. I don't want your ideas, I want scientific fact. Not one person has posted his method and geneticaly how it works. This post is mostly about breeding, but there seems to be little participation by others on the subject. gamecock96, do you know the diferance in theory and fact. Post all the derbies you have won. Post anything you have done, you have posted nothing on breeding. If you had a method, it would help. Why don't you just admit, you know nothing about genetic breeding and start a new thread, LIKE TO LIKE OR THE KEEN EYE METHOD. Post any method you use and I will show you with genetic and scientific backing how it can not produce consistancy.

I am not doing genetic breeding. Happy?? If you still do not know by now, with what i have posted, then i am sure you are the one without a clue. Dont lecture me on facts since all you have posted here are theories. you say you produce the heterozygous fowls, that upto now are just claims. Doesn't want to prove even with pics. Sorry sir. I have nothing to prove to you about my fowls. If you want to, ask around where i fight. I have no time to waste to prove that to you. YOu want to know, research, if you do not want to know, leave that alone, since i am happy with what i produce.... I do not sell fowls, so i just have to make me, myself and I , happy with them.