Pointing

[colt39]

I feed mine right at 16 hours befor weigh in time, about a level tea-spoon.

Just always rember that cooked feed passes a lot faster that hard feed so it will vary, depending on what your point feed consists of.

like what most have said,feel is of utmost importance.the feel of the cock's body connotes proper moisture.we can tell if they are too wet or too dry by how they feel.as it has been said over and over we want our cocks spongy(malambot) a few days before fight to give us assurance they got enough moisture and loose muscles.during pointing their bodies get a bit tighter or corky as we dry them up and this is where our judgment comes in if they feel right or not.no matter how empty they get their performace would be dependent on moisture.how many times have we seen in WSC that a cock passing intestinal droppings(green with white topping) win against a cock passing size of a dime urate droppings.like what some have said know your fowls and where they fight best.some fowls fight better less emptier than others and i have to agree with Colt their moisture should be the same no matter how empty they are.in hot weather like in the PI they come sharp faster and they go off quicker that's why i prefer them not too empty but with the right feel and moisture so as not to be sorry.
thanks Colt and Ducati.

This is a good post . I don't think I can add much to it except for this .......

Once you get your cock empty and he feels right , acts right , and is dropping right . It's time to start giving him a pinch of some type of food so his digestive system wont completely shut down . Boiled rice or barley is good if you feel he can use a little moisture , a pinch of toast is good to draw out a little moisture . Once you start , give a pinch every hour on the hour and you should be able to keep him sharp all day long .

[colt39]

Good post.

My main concern in getting a cock sharp is moisture.

I have seen them with feed still in their craw & if they have had the proper rest, moisture right & mentally peacked, win derbys.

My SK handler has the problem of feeding too much & getting them too dry.

I watched some Brownred/Japs with feed still in their craw that were too dry win a big derby. Those cocks with feed were fed orange to adjust the moisture & were cutting machines.

True, properly empty, they would have been even more devestating.

It is much better to show up with them ready with out having to fix something. But you do what you need to do.

colt could you help me to figure out when to give the last feed. you said that you give your last feed 16 hrs before weigh in if your fighting here in the states.Does this apply in P.I.usually our weigh in is in the morning around 8-9 am and most of the time derbys start at ten in the evening(in provinces) Iam a little confuse now i need your expertise thanks colt

[elson55]

Definitely, this is another very informative thread for novices and also for those who entirely rely on a handler to carry out the job of pointing/sharpening process. I’ve read and heard this word so frequently but it’s just now that I truly understand it. It seems that it’s widely a practice in P.I. or at least in the countryside where I came from; to black out the cock three days before the fight to give them a full rest and assorted colors of fabrics can be seen covering the holding cage in a pit in a local derby. Mr. Colt, you’ve a different view on this practice and you stated that they will be mentally unstable and will never get them sharp. I guess, you mean to say that there’s a possibility that they will become disoriented. Can you possibly expand on that or what’s being practiced in your area? I’m aware that giving them a good rest is a small component of the whole process but it’s just intriguing. Well, please keep them coming and thank you fellows for continuously sharing your knowledge and to the author for thinking it out loud.

try getting them used inside holding stalls............and also derby box or transport box.this.......everyday.........rehearsal......... ...is a must........for them to get used inside.............this is done gradually.............it takes time.............specially for high strung cocks..........

if you put a cock..... that has spent his life in teepees...........abruptly inside holding pen or derby box in last three days of keep...........they`ll be restless...........moving back and forth..........and uneasy............and eventually lose all the power and energy they store from keep.

but.......if you`ll start the rehearsal.....from the beginning of the keep......putting them in holding stalls..........and in derby box............they`ll get used to it

usually .............high strung cocks ..........don`t need that long .........blackout time........it`s the opposite..........

[colt39]

Yes, that is a big difference. If you weigh in at 8:00 am & do not start showing untill 10:00 pm that night you really have no choice but to feed a bit right after weighing them.

As far as what to feed them it would determin how high your humidity is at the pit.

I here it is high.

These are my thoughts with out being there to feel the birds, check their dropings & know the exact humidity.

Chances are by the time you get them weighed, it will be close to 9:00 am. That gives you 13 hours to get something in them & then get it back out befor fight time.

I would probably feed a tea-spoon of cooked brown rice. It will pass thru them fast & it still has moisture in it & has good carbs. Water would depend on the moisture at hand & the humidity the rest of the day. You may even just top it off with a teaspoon of butter-milk or yogart. It is not as hard to regulate the moisture & get it out, as water. Like I say, it will depend on the humidity. The cooked brown rice may do just right by it self with out water or butter-milk or yogart.

Get you one of the Temp-Humidity Guages. I have a digital one that is made for an incubator. It is very accurate. Randal Burkey sells them for right at $35.00.

If you have a humidifier/dehumidifier & a good cock house you can set it right where you want it.

If not, the $35.00 is money well spent because once you learn the humidity & what it does to your birds, you will know how to get them sharp & more often keep getting them sharp.

That way, you can show up at the pit & not have to fix the problem.

I have seen people win good, certain times of the year & other times of the year, be easy to whip. It is not because they ran out of good birds or yours got better. It is because they do not understand that the humidity plays a big role in what you are going to do to get them at their peak preformance.

They say, man it sure is starting to get hot. I better start loading them with moisture so they don't dry out. They don't have a clue about the humidity or even how high it is.

I know a place that has a river running with in 200 yards of the derby. The tempature is at least 4 to 5 degrees higher than what we have. Most people compensate by giving them more moisture because of the 4 to 5 degrees higher.

Well, if they took that little $35.00 Hydrogen meter with them, they would know that the humidity there, because of the river, is at all times, 15% to 20% higher than what we have. Even though it is a bit hotter, they pull in more moisture, so you have to compensate by giving them less moisture to get them sharp by the time it starts.

[colt39]

The amount of rest does depend a bit on how hard you work them.

If you take a high strung cock & put him thru a 3 week keep & then black him out for 3 days straight, I feel you may have already missed the perfect time to get him at his peak sharpness. Sure he will compete but, did he compete at his peak.

They are use to all that work & being rotated around. You want to get them use to every thing that will happen so it is not a big change for them. Then the last week you slow them down & start bringing them closer & closer to being sharp. Then you leave them in little stalls for three days straight, even blacking them out.

I look at it like a time bomb with a fuse. I want it to explode all over the other bird. The fuse is only so long so you want it to go off at the right time.

My Roundheads go in the stalls each night to sleep because this is where they are going to get their rest. That is all I use them for is rest.

For a Saturday day show, I will put them in Wednesday night. Thursday, they will stay there all day with the exception of droping them out every 2 hours. Friday, they will be there as well. Friday is the only day that I black them out. With this amount of rest & being empty as well as the proper moisture, they are very hard to whip.

I want them not only to preform well but prefor at their peak. I want them to be mentaly ready to take on the whole world & not be over rested to where their mental state has went over.

High strung birds do not need as much rest to get them mentaly & physicaly ready.

Then once you have figured out how to get them mentaly & physicaly ready, the proper moisture will help them reach out cut you in half as well as take it if needed.

[elson55]

Jim and Buhawi,
That’s more than a handful, thank you so much. Both of you have somewhat the same approach on this one.

Gentlemen,

Nice thread. Helpful discussion.

My views are:

1. It is not sharpness or pointing.
Sharpness is the object
of the entire exercise of pointing.

2. Aside from rest, point feeding,
moisture control, and hunger,
there is another element of
pointing: Stress management.

[colt39]

You just about summed it up.

I will give a simple example on resting fowl & how it can cause mental stress if they get to much.

Take three men.

One is a couch potato that does not have a job & pretty much stays in the house all day watching TV.

The second one is a guy that works on a farm & then after work goes home & has birds to feed and water.

The third is a boxer getting ready for a championship fight.

Which one do you think will need the most rest befor the fight, in order to be at their peak.

Well the couch potato may take the three days being cooped up in the house & made to rest. That is all he does anyways.

The farm worker that feeds his birds after work, may make it 2 days befor going stircrazy & needing to just get out of the house.

The boxer that is use to a lot of hard work may only make it one day befor going nuts.

Rember besides the rest that you force on them, the last week the work is slowly decreased. This in it self will give them a bit of rest & start to sharpen them physically as well as mentally.

[elson55]

Bai Rey,
This is a good curve ball and thought provoking view. Stress management? I guess, some sources of human’s stress may have relevance to a game cock also. I assume that you’re referring to how much training and exercise that a handler/feeder provides to the cock. And as mentioned before, having a good feel or knowledge of one’s cock is highly critical for the success of stress management. If you got the chance, can you expand this one for us students?

Elson,

On one end, it is exactly as what
Colt said.

The process of resting involves
stress management Rest does
not mean inactivity. It is a
gradual decrease in workout not
only to avoid injury
to the muscles and tissues
but also to prevent psychological
agitation that might result
in undue stress.

On the other end it has something
to do with the fact that no matter
what we do, we could not avoid stress.
We better make stress work for us.

Stress releases the hormone adrenaline
and we all know what wonders
adrenaline could do.

STRESS..............is when you encountered........someone,something,or any activity...............that you are not used to...........or let`s say new to you........and at that very moment...........requires you.......to react and adjust..........accordingly....

that ........small holding stall............seemingly tight derby box.............transporting from one place to another...........within a period of time............if they have not experienced it.........totally new to them.........would be .........an STRESSORS........if abruptly introduced.........and noise.........heat.......humidity in cockhouse

to prevent that to happen..........you gradually introduce them to the possible stressors..............you get them use to it........and they`ll be lesser stressed....

it`s like in work........when they introduce new machines........to work with..........you`re totally in stress.......but after spending time reading the manual.........knowing how it works.......and how to operate it..........the stress will be lesser everyday.....

it is like when a doctor ask you to prepare and administer..........dopamine....and you as a nurse.........don`t know the procedure..........or when he ask you to prepare and administer ......chemotheraphy.........through port a cath........and you don`t know the procedure..........you will suddenly find yourself in stress......then you`ll look for help..........that`s total stress............

[elson55]

Rey, Jim and Buhawi,

Thank you all for the amplification, good analogy, downright practical, and factual.

[colt39]

Yes, that is why you let them sleep in the resting stalls every night thru the keep. Then when it is time to force rest them the stress will be minimal.

You just have to know your birds, to know how much rest works the best. Like I have said, a high strung cock that is use to moving all day long & being active will not take as much rest as a cock that is inactive.

They will mentally go over being blacked out too long.

this is a reply to your post earlier.i'm with you all the way except that derby fight schedules in PI are not set like what you have here in America.you never know your fight number until the derby almost starts. weights are submitted day before or in the morning of fight day and derbies usually start at 1pm and only then you'll know your fight number.now when we empty fowls long before they get to fight chances are they may go off peak.how they can last on an empty stomach is a big question.so to be safer i prefer them not to be too empty to avoid going off.if i see cecal droppings(brown liquid and smelly)coming out that's good enough because it means they are almost empty.if i get them to pass urate droppings its even better.

[colt39]

I agree with you. You do not want them going over. Like I have said, I would rather them have a bit of feed still in them than have them too wet, too dry or going over.

It is hard to get them all at their 100% peak sharpness at the time of your first fight & keep every one there.

I like to see them on their way to their peak & peak towards the end. This way, they are starting at about 95% & then hit 100% & maybe back down to 95%. You are better off fighting them on their way up than on their way down.

When Copperstate was still open, we would give them two pecks of hard feed, moisture permitting, that mourning at about 8:00 am. The Derby would start about 1:00 pm & go sometimes all the way to the next mourning, about 4:30 am or so.

That was all they would get & we had plenty of 3:30 am, the next day fights & they fought just as good as the first ones.

I think that the un-cooked feed took longer to pass but it was not enough to hurt the first ones. They are allready hungry from the decrease in feed, the last three or so feeding befor the derby started.

Some people get them sharp, right when the derby starts & then do the bit of feed once an hour to keep them there.

What ever works the best for you.

The Saturday day derbys I am talking about are the ones that only have 40 to 65 entrys & start at 11:00 am and go to around 6:00 or 7:00 pm.

If I have them dropping quarter to dime spots at weigh in (about 9:00 am) I will not give them anything untill it is over, unless they start to dry up a bit. Then I will give them a bite of orange. Other than that, they stay pretty sharp, the whole way thru.

Colt,
I am with you on putting our birds
at 90 to 95% peak conditioned hours before the fight.

It is better to be a little short
of the peak than a little over the
peak.

Because, actually I don't believe
there is such thing as a little
over the peak. Once you've gone
over it, that's it. It spells disaster.
Not just a little disaster.

Again it has something to do with adrenaline.

However, in my ample experience
as conditioner and handler,
I sometimes find my self faced with
problems because not everything
went as scheduled.

It is in situation like this that
we have to apply the second method
you were saying.How to hold
the birds on point for hours more.

Jim, I am looking forward to meeting
you. Not in the pit but off the pit.
Maybe just to compare notes further.

Thanks.

[colt39]

If you let them go over, you will never bring them back. So you have to keep them there once they peak.

It is like going up a hill. Going up is a lot slower than going down.

I am looking forward to meeting you as well.

[ncyabut]

jim, buhawi, doongan and to the rest of the guys... all of you have done a splendid job of giving the people in here a peak into how you put your roosters at their sharpest shape possible... many times a well-bred, 100% healthy rooster is ruined when he is not properly pointed and is not as sharp as can be when fight time comes... great going guys!

[colt39]

Great going your self. You just said a mouth full.

Good cocks loose every day at the hands of amature feeders.

But, you have to start somewhere.:lol:

[elson55]

Jim,
It's nice to see you smile..... tks for the pm reply, late is better than never... will call you when the time comes.

when arizona was still open.
to expand a little more on the pointing, how much to feed and water to give before the show starts. (dry, wet (soak feed) or (cooked half or fully cooked)) and water, for moisture control.
for the show held in copper, we feed a little dry.
for the show held in neighbours, we feed dry.
for the show held on quartzite, we feed a little wet.
just because the water level is diff. in all 3 places. neighbors is 30 miles, south west of copper state. quartzite is about 22 miles east of copper state.
could this still be taken into
consideration since our moisture in the air is high, in our part of the world.

the filipino-okie

[colt39]

You are probably right. Your humidity over there is high so it has to be taken into consideration.

We feed dry at copperstate as well, even though it is hot there, the river makes up for it.

[ncyabut]

i agree with you jim, you have to take into consideration the prevailing weather considerations in the area where your fighting so you can adjust the way you'll be pointing your rooster. i also belive that the rooster's last full meal should be about 16 hours before fight time... and it is up to the handler/feeder to gauge what to feed the rooster and to know the exact timing and quantity in order to really have him as sharp as possible come fight time...

[khazimline]

ncyabut,
Nice thread,You've invited the big boys to share their knowledge to us.Keep posting guys & I will keep learning too.
Thanks,
khazimline

If a bird has been off feed and water for 8 hours could some one tell the condition of his liver, gall bladder and intestines at this point.

i could discuss them.........but you won`t understand me........if i say to you..........GPT.......GOT........amylase......... bilirubin.........alk.phos.......LDH:lol:........t hat ole jack daniels..........make me dizzy again......hik..hik:lol:.............i can go further.............CK.........CKMB........troponi n............but that are already heart enzymes...........hik..hik:lol: