SELECTION - the real key to winning!

[jailbird]

Originally Posted by EPG5 Backyard

I have a question for you guys. Some say you need several hundred birds to select from in order to have a high percentage of winning the big derbies. Others, by example - like Colt39, had a small amount of birds to select from and succeeded in scoring high (Runner-Up) in the WSC. I understand that we have to cull hard and all that.

So which is it? Do we need 200 Class A birds to select from or will 50 Class A cocks will suffice?

Note: By the way, I simply breed for genotype 'coz I don't care how they look and only care if they have a winning percentage of 70%.

Just like you do, we also breed by winning percentages - but thats not enough. Some of our fowl in the past had a generation of 100 percent winners (perfect score) - only for the next batch to score more zeroes than the japanese airforce hahahahahaha

Winning has so many factors, the biggest of which is your opponent. Then your gaffer, then your handler, then your cockhouse, then your keep, then your ...... infinite number of factors. so winning percentages is a very very important important indicator, but there are other predictors of success - and many of them are simply phenotypical - station, body shape, keel bone, tail angulation, neck length, etc etc. you need to detail your fowl to YOUR standards -vs your competition, following your pit rules, using your keep, wielding your weapon etc etc.

and then make sure you can happily afford it. stick to your means. not everyone needs to fight the WSC - unless our ego sorely needs it. to some the WSC is just another derby. To some it seems like cockfightings ultimate test. my take is - even the best WSC candidates will still get some zeroes if they join our taritari sessions :-))))

[LagingSwerte2]

Originally Posted by EPG5 Backyard

I have a question for you guys. Some say you need several hundred birds to select from in order to have a high percentage of winning the big derbies. Others, by example - like Colt39, had a small amount of birds to select from and succeeded in scoring high (Runner-Up) in the WSC. I understand that we have to cull hard and all that.

So which is it? Do we need 200 Class A birds to select from or will 50 Class A cocks will suffice?

Note: By the way, I simply breed for genotype 'coz I don't care how they look and only care if they have a winning percentage of 70%.

For me, there is no hard and fast rule. Certainly, there is more potential in scoring more wins with a larger selection than a few.

Potential because I know for a fact that a friend of mine only used 8 roosters from 10 he has and scored 6 in the overall of Sagupaan, while another entry bought and selected from many roosters as his entry to the same event but did not score a win. I was told by an unbiased source that the problem seemed to be in the condition within the cockhouse.

[colt39]

Originally Posted by brownred kelso

A gamefowl can have yellow legs and be green leg dominate,,,,,you can breed a rooster and hen together that might have a recessive trait of extreme cutting and that "nick" can produce offsprings on each ones dominate side that will not cut a lick,,,,,,,you can breed a straight combed recessive pair that nick back to the dominate pea combed and the offsprings will be pea heads,,,,,,,just because something looks,,,feels,,,acts,,,reacts and shows characteristics of does not mean those are dominate traits,,,,BRK

I think you better do a little research because you are wrong.

You can not have something pop up that is not there. You can not get a pea comb out of two straight combs. If a dominant allele is there it will be expressed or it simply just is not there.

[brownred kelso]

Originally Posted by colt39

I think you better do a little research because you are wrong.

You can not have something pop up that is not there. You can not get a pea comb out of two straight combs. If a dominant allele is there it will be expressed or it simply just is not there.

Explain this,,,, you breed a red eyed family of fowl and a gander eyed rooster comes along,,,,,,This ain't the Easter Bunny paying you a visit,,,now is it,,,,,,so the fowl had to have a recessive side of that gander eye surface,,,,,,BRK

[colt39]

Originally Posted by brownred kelso

Explain this,,,, you breed a red eyed family of fowl and a gander eyed rooster comes along,,,,,,This ain't the Easter Bunny paying you a visit,,,now is it,,,,,,so the fowl had to have a recessive side of that gander eye surface,,,,,,BRK

That is not as simple as dominant or recessive. Different factors cause a gander eye.

[colt39]

Originally Posted by ga coondawg

You are absolutely correct, but isn't it interesting that a strait comb can come from two pea combs!! I'm actually working rite now on setting a family of mcleans to the strait comb side because the strait comb poped up, and now they will be set as one side of the family...

the dominant pea head gene covers the recesive strait comb gene, but when for some reason the strait comb recesive gene is placed in the egg by the cock AND the hen, the stag/pullet will come strait comb... now that strait comb offspring will carry two recesive strait comb genes, but no gene for pea head, even though they came from pea head fowl...

It all goes back to the dominant recesive stuff, but once they have it at birth, it is there, it won't pop up later in life, or be passed on to their offspring by them if it isn't in them at birth.

If two different alleles are present together at the same locus in a heterzygote, the allele not expressed in the phenotype is recessive (straight comb) and the one expressed is dominant (pea comb).

If you have a straight comb (recessive) it takes identical alleles to express it self. Since there are only two alleles & it takes two of the same to be expressed, it can only pass on a recessive allele to it's sibs.

Breed a straight comb to a pure pea comb & all the offspring will be pea combed. But breed the sibs together that are all pea combed & you will then see straight combs pop up.

[brownred kelso]

The ALLELE proves my point exactly,,,,,,which is an alternative form of a gene,,,,,this is the "NICK" everyone strives for and breeding exact is not possible without your breaking down the birds DNA and unlocking the gamefowls genetic codes,,,,,the Allele is responsible the creating tall or short in the offsprings, just as welll as breeding for "cutting is possible, however breeding for "deadly accurate cutting" relys on the Allele or the genitic"nick" when the actual breeding of the pair occur,,,,,,,,,,,,which brings about an interesting concept,,,,when it becomes possible to unlock and unravel the exact DNA of an ACE COCK,,,,the SUPER RICH cockers will be bringing the exact same birds,,,over and over and over,,,,BRK

[jailbird]

Originally Posted by brownred kelso

The ALLELE proves my point exactly,,,,,,which is an alternative form of a gene,,,,,this is the "NICK" everyone strives for and breeding exact is not possible without your breaking down the birds DNA and unlocking the gamefowls genetic codes,,,,,the Allele is responsible the creating tall or short in the offsprings, just as welll as breeding for "cutting is possible, however breeding for "deadly accurate cutting" relys on the Allele or the genitic"nick" when the actual breeding of the pair occur,,,,,,,,,,,,which brings about an interesting concept,,,,when it becomes possible to unlock and unravel the exact DNA of an ACE COCK,,,,the SUPER RICH cockers will be bringing the exact same birds,,,over and over and over,,,,BRK

interesting thought: YOUR CLONE VERSUS MINE :-)

Or better still: when the greatest pit fighter gets cloned and two of the most perfect copies are fought against each other, then who would win?

[biak na bato]

Sir Jeb, prepare your clones. Greetings from the big apple. I have corresponded with sirs Joey and the saint and have donated my part of the prize money in San Juan to the tari tari sessions. No sabong for me now and back to my OFW chores. At least, I was able to set up the beginnings of a farm in Batangas, got to be a BBC member and had about 100 heads banded by NFGB for testing later this year. Here goes your selection. That's all I have for now. It is difficult to run a farm by remote control. Ask sir epg5 and he knows it all. Sir laging swerte, yes our friend from San Juan selected from ten and had a decent record. All the best in your endeavors. Regards.

[remier]

Originally Posted by brownred kelso

It all sounds so easy,,,,until you mate a fresh pair and you think you have every single genotype identified possible, then you breed the pair and the mating unlocks a recessive trait in the offsprings that you had no clue existed,,,,,which you'll have to wait a couple years before you determine how good or how bad this trait effected their performance,,,,,,,or you trigger the dominant genes that you never knew existed,,,,,,boom off to the races once again,,,,,,the entire culture and breeding of gamefowl is alot more extensive than all articles prescribe,,,,,,BRK

It maybe right but in my opininon, I will use that dominant genes as a filter to get the one that I wanted from the mating. You can only linebreed after you created the breed. The only nearest possible to recommend is the bro-sis mating but it may create another kind of breed, in the long run.

[brownred kelso]

Originally Posted by remier

It maybe right but in my opininon, I will use that dominant genes as a filter to get the one that I wanted from the mating. You can only linebreed after you created the breed. The only nearest possible to recommend is the bro-sis mating but it may create another kind of breed, in the long run.

I will always remember visiting the late great Hugh Norman, the father of gamefowl genetics, while staying at the Ratliff school a friend suggested to take a trip to Mr. Normans,,,,his servant/butler/met us at the door and seated us in the great room, saying Mr. Norman would be with us in a few minutes, he came into the room and started talking genetics and after about 30 minutes, he advised his fee was $500.00 per hour,,,,quickly i pulled out $20.00 and said that was all i had,,,he laughed and invited us out into his bird yard,,,,,,had us wash our feet before we could visit his birds as he advised Ratliff's were diseased, he said,,,while Ratliff called him a crazy old Son of a Buck,,,,,but anyhow,,,,,POINT IS,,,,,we are all eat up with 1/2,,,,3/4,,,,,5/8.....15/16,,,,or what have you,,,,while Mr. Norman got me thinking in terms of father, daughter, aunt uncle, cousin,,,neice, nephews and that in my opinion makes for a more truer, proper method of breeding gamefowl,,,,BRK

[colt39]

Originally Posted by brownred kelso

I will always remember visiting the late great Hugh Norman, the father of gamefowl genetics, while staying at the Ratliff school a friend suggested to take a trip to Mr. Normans,,,,his servant/butler/met us at the door and seated us in the great room, saying Mr. Norman would be with us in a few minutes, he came into the room and started talking genetics and after about 30 minutes, he advised his fee was $500.00 per hour,,,,quickly i pulled out $20.00 and said that was all i had,,,he laughed and invited us out into his bird yard,,,,,,had us wash our feet before we could visit his birds as he advised Ratliff's were diseased, he said,,,while Ratliff called him a crazy old Son of a Buck,,,,,but anyhow,,,,,POINT IS,,,,,we are all eat up with 1/2,,,,3/4,,,,,5/8.....15/16,,,,or what have you,,,,while Mr. Norman got me thinking in terms of father, daughter, aunt uncle, cousin,,,neice, nephews and that in my opinion makes for a more truer, proper method of breeding gamefowl,,,,BRK

Mr Norman was one of the greats & knew more about breeding than most.

[jailbird]

Originally Posted by biak na bato

Sir Jeb, prepare your clones. Greetings from the big apple. I have corresponded with sirs Joey and the saint and have donated my part of the prize money in San Juan to the tari tari sessions. No sabong for me now and back to my OFW chores. At least, I was able to set up the beginnings of a farm in Batangas, got to be a BBC member and had about 100 heads banded by NFGB for testing later this year. Here goes your selection. That's all I have for now. It is difficult to run a farm by remote control. Ask sir epg5 and he knows it all. Sir laging swerte, yes our friend from San Juan selected from ten and had a decent record. All the best in your endeavors. Regards.

Hi sir Ham, you have accomplished in a few months what many could only dream of in their lifetime!!! See you soon buddy!

[jailbird]

Originally Posted by VMT^Carmen

Selecting is probably he only factor that is in the total control of the cocker, the rest is influenced by some others.

There is no standard to go by except the Selector's subjective view. This subjectiveness in some breeders is even shifted to objectiveness by not sparring their fowls but actually arming them realistically in the selection process. That is probably the next best thing if you have lots of birds to spare. Otherwise you go to the pits and test it there against an unknown. And for some countries this is very far in between, and thus not ideal.

Again there is no hard and fast rule in this area but wisdom acquired over the years does help a lot. The deficiency thereof ruin bloodlines, and even winning lines.

Breeds fight at their best when they are at their best. If not careful enough for example in styles, a speed fowl bred heavily into a flyer loses that speed that is critical to its fighting winning ways. It wins on speed and should not be sacrificed in favour of an unproven combo.

Winning being the end goal for a buyer's point of view, selection is thus king. From a seller's point of view, whatever the buyers want. But from a breeder's point of view, 'I don't care what you all think, my breed will give a good fight!.. then the winning come second !'

Others are good in one criteria but are totally rubbish on the others. And that what makes it even more fun.

Would be nice to elaborate on the points raised above.

[swallow]

Originally Posted by EPG5 Backyard

I have a question for you guys. Some say you need several hundred birds to select from in order to have a high percentage of winning the big derbies. Others, by example - like Colt39, had a small amount of birds to select from and succeeded in scoring high (Runner-Up) in the WSC. I understand that we have to cull hard and all that.

So which is it? Do we need 200 Class A birds to select from or will 50 Class A cocks will suffice?

Note: By the way, I simply breed for genotype 'coz I don't care how they look and only care if they have a winning percentage of 70%.

This is a very good question, and deserves to get an answer.

when you go back to threads and post made about a decade ago, most people here will tell you that one should start with 100up bird, and selected to 50 and so forth and so on, however in my years of competing in WSC, wherein I have not scored less than .500pct, we had always started with 20 birds, and cut down to 10 immediately after the first month of training.

First having a high winning percentage is not a guarantee even if you have 300 SUPER ACE to fight, the only thing that you can guarantee is you have a competitive line up that given the smile of lady luck, you could win it all.

Now what is the number needed to have that chance? My personal opnion for an 8-10 cock derby, you need at least 16-20 "Ace" bird to start with. If you are familiar with your birds and their health history, you can actually go down to 12-15 heads.

Hope the above helps you. If you believe you have good birds and cutting bird, just go for it. Experience and Exposure will also let you identify Ace bird.

[RayBoles]

Jim I am going to let you handel this. Way to confusing for me. See how I felt a few years ago. A little knowledge can be dangerous, if it is not understood.

[BantonSpur]

Originally Posted by red dragon 133

1.pit performance records of full brothers and parents
2.health
3.body conformation
4.temper

How about fighting qualities of the hens? Some hens do fight and sometimes are really deadgame...

If you have hens like this, would you consider fighting style in the selection?

[BantonSpur]

Originally Posted by brownred kelso

AWWW, CHIT here we go,,,,,,after being on the receiving end of the best bloodlines in the USA for years, since all the big time entry visited the islands and have to leave the fowl behind and also many of the American entry having set up in the Phillipines a farm to operate since the cockfighting climate has changed here in the USA,,after knowing all this, you start bragging about the WSC,,,,,,that's like an American winning the Daytona 500 with an imported vehicle,,,,you're bragging about bloodlines that were developed here in the USA,,,,wait 30 years from now,,,should cockfighting be totally suppressed here in the USA, you'll be catching wild birds out of the woods once again my friend,,,my opinion of what is what,,,,BRK

BRK,

Where is this coming from? Is there an issue on the origin of the current Filipino gamefowl? It is a fact that we owe the materials from our American friend and from many others. The question is, did we get it for free? I am sure they were paid for in whatever arrangement the american counter[part agreed to. The presence of american fowls is the PI is a product of good business dealing among friends and partners. Besides, as your weapon is different from ours, we have to breed these materials to suit our weapon. If we fight fowls bred for the gaff or short knife in the long knife, probability is they will end up deadgame...just that dead game!

No need to catch birds from the woods. Materials to carry on the sport abound and even without importation in the next century, I am sure we can make good of what we have... Many of the posts come from gentlemen cockers, I do pray that someday yours would reflect that admirable trait...

[BantonSpur]

Originally Posted by kywolf

please don't judge all of us americans by BRK.over here he is what we refer to as a rail-bird.you know the kind,dosn't own any roosters but he's always hanging over the edge of the pit telling the handlers how to pit or doctor their rooster,or is standing around the stove telling everyone how to condition or breed an insulting anyone that happens to disagree with him.but i have to admit BRK thats pretty good,you know all about the history of phillipine cock fighting by just having an uncle there back in the 40's..........

We filipinos in general have great respect for our american brothers and admitedly, most of us like everything that is american... including the good and honest american breeders and gentlemen cockers, some of them have spent much time in the country as partners of local breedres and cockers and some have decided to stay and die here...

By your post, you have aptly described BRK, thank you...now I know what kind of a person he really is and how I should treat his opinions and post...

[BantonSpur]

Originally Posted by jailbird

A very common practice among stag selection, is to mark out the alpha males in the range. The most dominant is then taken out first and hardened with a female, then the next one who succeeds him. Usually in a batch of 30-50 cockerels, the first 5-8 to dominate are prized. After the dominant ones are taken, it usually turns into a free for all. Maybe 2 reasons, either because no one rules or they all have reached the right maturity or both.

It would be interesting to note if those that mature early have a bigger percentage of wins than those late maturing. Could this form part of a stag selection process?

To avoid the free for all and stretch our stags time in the range, do not take out the alpha male. Take out the one that challenged the alpha male and so on and so forth. This will allow the presence of a "bastonero" in the range and will prevent the stags from fighting against its other to establish who is the alpha male as there is already one. The reason for the free for all is the absence and search for one once you take out the alpha male... my 2 cents worth.

[brownred kelso]

that's right,,,the birds back in the 40's came out of the woods,,,all the good gamefowls were bred in the USA,,,,When Hulsey started coming over there,,,,you did not blend anything to fit the weapon,,,,,they totally dominated everything on the islands and they were shipped there and fought there,,,they were not bred there,,,,,,
Every chance a handful of these Walter Kelso wannabe's get to print something that can be made offensive,,,here we go again,,,,i was defending my position we a proud American,,,,,as the other fella was not giving credit where credit was due,,,,
My point was that with a continued decline in cockfighting here in the USA,,,the level of competition will decline in the phillipines,,,,,without the best of brood stock being continually shipped into the islands,,,,BRK
Course anyone not liking my posts or opinions,,,,don't read em,,,,simple as that,,,brk

[BantonSpur]

Originally Posted by brownred kelso

Now, as i have read and read these posts, it's obvious to me that all the islanders think they are God's gift of anything with feathers on it,,,,,,,Let me tell you this,,,,,they would have still been fighting bantams in the islands had not the AMERICAN breeders brought those damn good roosters over to you and that is what raised the level of competition in the Phillipines,,,,so before you advise me what all you know, you've got to remember it was nice having something to work with when you start, makes everything at the finish work out that much better,,,,this is my opinion of what is what,,BRK

BRK, long before the american fowls came, cockfighting was already flourishing in the islands. During fiestas and other significant celebrations, pintakasis were part of the activities and this did not start in the american era, this started during the spanish time. Yes BRK, long before the american fowls came, cockfighting is already part of our culture.

I did not see the post you were referring to but if it offended you, you could have addressed the author of that post and not generalize all the islanders... in an insulting manner... and by the way, we did not fight bantams then, its only now that we are fighting bantams as sideshow during hackfights in selected cockpits... we could have not as the bantams are not native to the islands but imported as well, like the american game...

I believe we can have better discussions and learn a lot from each other if only we can refrain from comments that tend to generalise and slants towards racism...but that is only my opinion and perhaps a wishful thinking... cheers!

[brownred kelso]

No, it's not racist,,,,it's about the birds,,,,,my uncle was telling me about the cockfighting, when he was there,,,,rebuilding an air field after Macarther liberated the islands from the japanese,,,,he is 90's,,,he was advising me that those birds were smal and not like the game chickens in the USA,,,back in the day,,,,as he remembered,,,,,
Now it's very difficult for me to admit the Japanese builds a better car than we do here in the USA,,,,but whats right is right,,,,,as i'm sure it's very hard for you to admit the best birds are bred here in the USA,,,,,,,BRK

[BantonSpur]

Let me quote your first sentence BRK, "...it's obvious to me that ALL THE ISLANDERS think that they are God's gift to anything..." is it not generalising? I also dis not say it is racist, I said "slants towards racism" and that is not entirely different...

Just that you will have a better perspective of the filipino fowl and will not sound unlearned to those in this thread, let me tell you some facts...

1. Most filipino fowls, your uncle is right, is not as big as as the american fowl. I said most as there are those that are just as big. We call it tagalog or bisaya to distinguish it from the american fowl. We also have the labuyo or the filipino jungle fowl that are much smaller than the domesticated fowl but they are not fought in the cockpits.
2. The bantams are much much more smaller than the filipino fowl and they originated from imported fowls just like the american game. They do not have any relation whatsoever to the filipino fowl. The bantam fight only became a trend lately as sideshown in some cockpits specially during the moulting season when fights are few. For you to teach us of our cockfighting history and insist something based on the story of your uncle and of your interpretation of what you heard from him is plain arrogance to say the least... did he say we were fighting bantams in the first place? Was it not that all he mentioned, according to your post is those birds were smaller than the american game and it was only you who concluded that they were bantams?

It is not hard for me to admit that the best materials are bred in the USA. This is the reason why many filipinos import. But remember that cockfighting is illegal over there since several years ago and the freedom breeders enjoy then, they cannot enjoy anymore. As birds are tested in the pit for competitiveness and raring plays a big part to their quality, the freedom that we have to do whatever we think is good for our fowls will surely reflect on their quality, this you do not enjoy anymore. As to the quality of birds in the long knife, your claim that the USA still has it is stronly in question... but you can believe whatever you want to believe,. that I cannot take away from you...

[jailbird]

With the cockfighting ban in the US, and with the H$US raiding people who SPAR their roosters, it is inevitable that the quality of the fowl will deteriorate into nice SHOWBIRDS that will only be good for Coefficients of Inbreeding or for beauty contests.

I dont care if people say that there is still fighting going on. The fact that people have to hide to do it means that only the brave and reckless can fight. Not the best of the best.

When it was legal and the gaff was king - it was but natural for the american breeders to evolve the gamest birds. After all they only bred gaff proven fowl. But with the ban and all the hiding, it wont take long for those birds to evolve into "breeders choice" showbirds.

I think the best gamefowl in the future will come from Mexico and South American Countries where cockfighting is legal for postizas and Sk, and the Philippines for LK.

There will still be some pockets of Excellence in the US, and those will be the breeders who continuously ship their fowl to Mexicans and Filipinos - AND who LISTEN to the FEEDBACK. The rest will just have a lot of **** in their hands decades from now. Just my opinion.

[brownred kelso]

"It is not hard for me to admit that the best materials are bred in the USA. This is the reason why many filipinos import. But remember that cockfighting is illegal over there since several years ago and the freedom breeders enjoy then, they cannot enjoy anymore. As birds are tested in the pit for competitiveness and raring plays a big part to their quality, the freedom that we have to do whatever we think is good for our fowls will surely reflect on their quality, this you do not enjoy anymore. As to the quality of birds in the long knife, your claim that the USA still has it is strongly in question... but you can believe whatever you want to believe,. that I cannot take away from you"

You're always mentioning "materials" just like the bird is a raw material that you took and built something with, the proper accolade would be "Brood stock" or "Seed stock" which would recognise the breeder and/or place of origin,,,,,,,now if you're going to quote me,,,,quote the whole deal,,,,,,as i mentioned the Phillipino people thinking they are God's gift to the LK,,,,,,the Hispanic people thinking they are God's gift to the SK and the American's thinking they are God's gift to the Long heel,,,,,ALL this makes for competition,,,,,THE BIRDS BRING US TOGETHER AS ONE,,,,,as i also mentioned if a man being what ever race, creed or color, has good fowl, sets down good roosters you have to show respect
Also the reason for posting originally was that through a system of selection, as in social deprivation, the feeding of hard grains and working towards the supreme good health of my entire flock, i wanted to pass the information forward as with this situation,,,,young breeders could keep a gamer bird that might be in a position where testing was limited, NO OFFENCE TO ANY FACTIONS INTENDED,,,,,,,as many people that have found with me, if you don't want my exact opinion,,,,don't ask,,,,,,BRK

[EPG5 Backyard]

Originally Posted by biak na bato

Sir Jeb, prepare your clones. Greetings from the big apple. I have corresponded with sirs Joey and the saint and have donated my part of the prize money in San Juan to the tari tari sessions. No sabong for me now and back to my OFW chores. At least, I was able to set up the beginnings of a farm in Batangas, got to be a BBC member and had about 100 heads banded by NFGB for testing later this year. Here goes your selection. That's all I have for now. It is difficult to run a farm by remote control. Ask sir epg5 and he knows it all. Sir laging swerte, yes our friend from San Juan selected from ten and had a decent record. All the best in your endeavors. Regards.

Hello Sir Ham . I'm glad to hear you had a good production of cockerels for the stag derbies. Unfortunately I can't say the same 'coz I only got 43 that qualified for banding and so far we have lost 5 from sickness due to the extreme heat and sudden rainfall in our area. TALK ABOUT A SMALL NUMBER TO SELECT FROM .

[YeY197]

Originally Posted by jailbird

it is inevitable that the quality of the fowl will deteriorate into nice SHOWBIRDS that will only be good for Coefficients of Inbreeding or for beauty contests.

I dont care if people say that there is still fighting going on. The fact that people have to hide to do it means that only the brave and reckless can fight. Not the best of the best.

When it was legal and the gaff was king - it was but natural for the american breeders to evolve the gamest birds. After all they only bred gaff proven fowl. But with the ban and all the hiding, it wont take long for those birds to evolve into "breeders choice" showbirds.

I think the best gamefowl in the future will come from Mexico and South American Countries where cockfighting is legal for postizas and Sk, and the Philippines for LK.

There will still be some pockets of Excellence in the US, and those will be the breeders who continuously ship their fowl to Mexicans and Filipinos - AND who LISTEN to the FEEDBACK. The rest will just have a lot of **** in their hands decades from now. Just my opinion.

People always hid even when it was legal you never seen cockfighting in any mainstream outlets, big cities, ect ect wether it was legal or illegal here in the states..lol..You couldnt be any wronger than you are about your assumption that only breeders who ship to other countries will maintain excellent birds thats complete hogwash cause the real cockers dont advertise or sell to nobody they play the game for themselfs and their birds.

I dont know who your sources are and where you get this info from but its complete bullchit, there is hundreds of shows and and thousands of cocks being shown today all across America on this beautiful Saturday this is a huge country 3.79 squared miles of mostly rural communities, and you dont know about it and Sabong.net.ph dont hear about it and we are happy with that for now.

The brave and "wreckless" do fight because they are the best of the best now get you facts updated then talk. Some of them "Great American Legends" that fillipinos love couldnt buy a fight in todays competition against the brave and the wreckless esspecially if the breed for LK.

[jailbird]

Originally Posted by YeY197

People always hid even when it was legal you never seen cockfighting in any mainstream outlets, big cities, ect ect wether it was legal or illegal here in the states..lol..You couldnt be any wronger than you are about your assumption that only breeders who ship to other countries will maintain excellent birds thats complete hogwash cause the real cockers dont advertise or sell to nobody they play the game for themselfs and their birds.

I dont know who your sources are and where you get this info from but its complete bullchit, there is hundreds of shows and and thousands of cocks being shown today all across America on this beautiful Saturday this is a huge country 3.79 squared miles of mostly rural communities, and you dont know about it and Sabong.net.ph dont hear about it and we are happy with that for now.

The brave and "wreckless" do fight because they are the best of the best now get you facts updated then talk. Some of them "Great American Legends" that fillipinos love couldnt buy a fight in todays competition against the brave and the wreckless esspecially if the breed for LK.

Well, good luck to you. We wish you all the best. You can always live in your world of make believe. Everyone is entitled to that.

[kywolf]

well,as far as "american fowl" there is no such thing.there never were any wild chickens here, as they were all brought here from england,ireland and yes,even the orient.and as far as the **** shutting things down i can name several places that get anywhere from 100 to 200 plus entries every weekend not to mention the smaller places......does it sound like 200 entries would have much chance of "hiding"?